Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
07-10-2011, 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I won't disagree that part of it is learning to get good at it. But this strict reliance on Teamplay is really the Achielle's heal with STO PvP because teamwork greatly distances that from other players. So non-teamed players really have no chance in H when they fight a premade.
Sometimes I feel like I am at loss of words.

Get this: No matter what game mechanic you use, team-play _always_ wins.

Even if there were no heals, no area buffs, no nothing, team-play wins.

The only way to remove the importance of team-play is to run 1v1. (Free For All isn't enough, because than you can still have groups of people cooperating together until its time to kill each other).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
07-10-2011, 05:22 AM
And here is where Azzy and I take a sharp difference in opinion.

When I get it handed to me the first thing I ask is "where did I go wrong and what can I do to improve?" Even when I led my team in damage, and kill count. The first place I place blame on, in a loss is myself. Admittedly right now, I blow pretty hard on ground. But after watching my demorecord vids, and seeing what weapons and layouts the enemy teams are using, alot of it is at this point just luck of the draw. He with Blast and Pet Spam will probably overcome the team with the least, if both teams know what they are doing.

My successes, have come when I've been on the positive end of that kind of team layout.

The second thing I ask myself is what could my team have done better? Did we have voice chat? No? There's a mark against our favor right there. Did we stay together, but spread out enough that we wouldn't get blasted down in one volley by the enemy team? No? There's two marks. Did we end up forced to go down coverless and narrow hallways to engage the enemy? Yes? That's three.

Ground game, at this point is as intense as space pvp. If you've not been practicing and you have 3 major disadvantages against you you're going to get curbstomped.

However, even with the curbstompings, I can see that I am slowly improving my game. It's just a matter of acclimating to the current environment. I know at some point I'm going to have to rally my fleet, so we can make the beginnings of a ground premade, or I'm going to have to figure out who else enjoys ground in the other Fleets, that doesn't have a Ground Team and maybe making a coalition so we can all improve and have a competitive experience against the Ground Fleets (is that an oxymoron?) out there.

I didn't get to be good at Halo3 by *****ing and moaning. Same with Gears and Rainbow. Experience Counts, and being determined to learn from your mistakes will infinitely help there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
07-10-2011, 05:55 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~WishStone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
07-10-2011, 09:36 AM
With S4 out I've spent some time doing GPVP for the first time in a year and getting my rear handed to me over and over by FS. Here's a thought for Cyrptic. How about an accolade check when entering the queues. If you haven't completed the first kill 100 officers accolade, you go to a queue with similar players. Do the same based on the 500 officers and 1000 officers as well. Basically a beginner / advance / elite check.

I'm not complaining about pugging against premades, but it's hard to "LTP" when newbies fall over like dominoes. And then they quit coming back and the queues return to the graveyard they were last month.

I almost killed Mikiy last night, which was a victory for me. But she must have killed me 20 - 25 times without even noticing me. FS has their teamwork down. They have their tactics and powers tuned to a fine edge. I'm still figuring out a reasonable setup for my Engineer.

Give me the chance to learn and then let me take them on Cryptic...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
07-10-2011, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Sometimes I feel like I am at loss of words.

Get this: No matter what game mechanic you use, team-play _always_ wins.

Even if there were no heals, no area buffs, no nothing, team-play wins.

The only way to remove the importance of team-play is to run 1v1. (Free For All isn't enough, because than you can still have groups of people cooperating together until its time to kill each other).
STO GPvP is more like pack mentality than actual team play, you stick close to the others and your survival goes up. And is somewhat true in Space PvP with fedballs.

And this focus on team play by Cryptic has not encouraged players to use teamwork, it just made real teams tougher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
And here is where Azzy and I take a sharp difference in opinion.

When I get it handed to me the first thing I ask is "where did I go wrong and what can I do to improve?" Even when I led my team in damage, and kill count. The first place I place blame on, in a loss is myself. Admittedly right now, I blow pretty hard on ground. But after watching my demorecord vids, and seeing what weapons and layouts the enemy teams are using, alot of it is at this point just luck of the draw. He with Blast and Pet Spam will probably overcome the team with the least, if both teams know what they are doing.

My successes, have come when I've been on the positive end of that kind of team layout.

The second thing I ask myself is what could my team have done better? Did we have voice chat? No? There's a mark against our favor right there. Did we stay together, but spread out enough that we wouldn't get blasted down in one volley by the enemy team? No? There's two marks. Did we end up forced to go down coverless and narrow hallways to engage the enemy? Yes? That's three.

Ground game, at this point is as intense as space pvp. If you've not been practicing and you have 3 major disadvantages against you you're going to get curbstomped.

However, even with the curbstompings, I can see that I am slowly improving my game. It's just a matter of acclimating to the current environment. I know at some point I'm going to have to rally my fleet, so we can make the beginnings of a ground premade, or I'm going to have to figure out who else enjoys ground in the other Fleets, that doesn't have a Ground Team and maybe making a coalition so we can all improve and have a competitive experience against the Ground Fleets (is that an oxymoron?) out there.

I didn't get to be good at Halo3 by *****ing and moaning. Same with Gears and Rainbow. Experience Counts, and being determined to learn from your mistakes will infinitely help there.
If that was the case then the PvP population wouldn't be down to a few hundred out of tens of thousands that do play STO. So something has to give regarding playstyle, else Cryptic should get rid of PvP and divert recourses to actually making content.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
07-10-2011, 02:03 PM
I <3 new ground PvP.

But, there's something I noticed that may bode well for space: The Chroniton mines are actually quite deadly. Maybe this means we'll get some space mine loving too
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
07-10-2011, 07:50 PM
There's got to be some sort of middle ground.

On the one hand, PvP has to be learned, like anything else. Take instruction (which most of the top GPvPers are more than willing to give) and practice.

On the other hand, it is REALLY frustrating to try to learn, then get destroyed every time. I've gotten better than I was, and I'm sure if I could dedicate insane amounts of time to practicing, I might be able to almost crack the top tier. But I don't have that kind of time, and when I play STO, I play GPvP, because that's what's fun for me. But it just isn't that fun to get stomped every time 30-1, even if I do learn from every loss.

Even if someone is a glutton for punishment and trying to get better, they will leave with enough pounding, because it just isn't fun. I don't know what the solution is, and I really want there to be one, because I do NOT want ground to return to the ghost town it was before the revamp. As long as that situation is avoided, everything will be fine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
07-10-2011, 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
STO GPvP is more like pack mentality than actual team play, you stick close to the others and your survival goes up. And is somewhat true in Space PvP with fedballs.
You can call it "pack mentality" or "fedball" but that actually IS teamplay, if the opposing team scatters all over the map its just a sign that they either go totally easy on you and want you to get a few kills too or are newbies that are lost on the map or got no idea about teamplay.

Teamplay is all about staying together, assisting, healing, focus firing, rescuing each other and executing combo attacks and thats the same in most games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
If that was the case then the PvP population wouldn't be down to a few hundred out of tens of thousands that do play STO.
PvP is minority business in most mmorpgs, thats normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
So something has to give regarding playstyle, else Cryptic should get rid of PvP and divert recourses to actually making content.
Yea i can see how the huge amount of resources they spend on expanding and bugfixing pvp issues is heavily missed somewhere else
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
07-10-2011, 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felderburg View Post
There's got to be some sort of middle ground.

On the one hand, PvP has to be learned, like anything else. Take instruction (which most of the top GPvPers are more than willing to give) and practice.
I think at some point, practice is not enough. But neither is time devotion. What you need is people to join up with and build a team. People you know how to talk with, you can coordinate with, people whose play style you get.

It is the same in Space and Ground PvP. At some point, it is more important to have good teamwork than to get your power rotations right 100 % of the time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
07-11-2011, 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I think at some point, practice is not enough. But neither is time devotion. What you need is people to join up with and build a team. People you know how to talk with, you can coordinate with, people whose play style you get.

It is the same in Space and Ground PvP. At some point, it is more important to have good teamwork than to get your power rotations right 100 % of the time.
True enough. But there should still be a place for people who don't have the time/devotion to build or join a fleet that regularly PvPs. I'm not saying PvP should put up with the "Kirks" that charge in, to heck with teamwork - I mean people who like GPvP, and regularly PUG it up. There should still be a place for the more "casual" players to play and enjoy PvP, without getting frustrated into leaving.
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