Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
07-09-2011, 04:28 PM
Make FAW only produce a second beam when it is targeting the primary target. If my forward arrays are in arc of the primary target, they fire two beams each (one at main, one at random) but my aft beams only fire one target at random. If I have no primary target, no secondary beams at all.

This reduces FAW's potential damage factor to 200% tops while CSV is 300%.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 52
07-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
So if I understand the latest changes, FAW now does not ignore defense rating, lasts 10s, and still fires at primary and random secondary targets with a 5th beam. It does not have arc restrictions, aside from normal weapon arcs.

Meanwhile CSV does not ignore defense rating, lasts 10s, fires at primary and 2 other targets with a similar DPS increase. However it has severe arc restrictions regardless of cannon type (which often prevents getting multiple targets in the arc), suffers the damage drop off at range of cannons, and is a BO rank higher.

Do I need to explain why I would agree FAW is still in need of some kind of additional nerf or CSV needs a buff?
Having been hit by both FAW and CSV as the only target on multiple occasions I would say FAW is just fine and if anything CSV and perhaps rapid fire as well need to be tuned down. FAW deals nothing like the damage from cannon ability's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
07-09-2011, 05:06 PM
FAW seems mostly fine. If a downward adjustment is still needed, it should be slight.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
07-09-2011, 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain Brown
Having been hit by both FAW and CSV as the only target on multiple occasions I would say FAW is just fine and if anything CSV and perhaps rapid fire as well need to be tuned down. FAW deals nothing like the damage from cannon ability's.
Nor is it supposed too... There is a reason Dual cannons are limited to Escorts... there is a reason Canons Skills are one tier higher.

Cannons > Beams for DPS.... no kidden do you think ?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
07-09-2011, 05:48 PM
One night of pvp and I found it to be ok... I even saw some mines and scorp fighters back into the mix. I have never ran the skill so I don't know much about it, but I did notice my shields were not being dropped by faw cruisers 9 km away who did not even realize that I was there...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
07-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Nor is it supposed too... There is a reason Dual cannons are limited to Escorts... there is a reason Canons Skills are one tier higher.

Cannons > Beams for DPS.... no kidden do you think ?
The point is its not doing overwhelming damage or anything but it is useful for blocking heavy torpedoes and doing damage to carrier pets still. I see no problem with the current values.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
07-09-2011, 08:22 PM
saying that cruisers shouldn't be damage dealers is absurd, and a disservice to the IP. what really needs to be done is an overhaul to the way large beam arrays work in game, but until that happens solutions need to be found in tweaking skills. escorts should excel at spike damage, everyone agrees with that, that's even accurate to what we see in the shows. cruisers set up with dps as their primary goal (as apposed to healing or tanking) should excel at damage over time which will only kill anyone in battles that are much longer then escort strikes. allot of that should come from engineering skills like DEM and EPtW, give it a 30 second damage buff along with EPtS 30 second resist buff. give EPtE and EPtA full 30 second bonuses too.

lets say a cruiser is facing as escort sideways and they are going to do a damage test. a full 8 beam broadside, and Nadion Inversion so it can use all those beams, with FAW should do less damage then the escort with CRF, 4 dual cannons and 3 turrets in the 10 seconds those skills are active. if no healing or defending against each others attacks take place during the 10 seconds, the cruiser should probably be dead and the escort nearly dead. throw in all the other damage buffs and resists and movement and you have normal game play. if an escort cant kill a cruiser before all its buffs run out it should probably retreat, getting in a slugging match is not were an escort excels, its not durable enough.

so a well piloted cruiser should beat an escort 1v1 every time, well that's how it is now anyway, i never loose to escorts 1v1. that's kind of ok though, the game shouldn't be balanced for 1v1 fights, an escort should be part of a joint attack, not going in solo and assassinating were ever it goes. now that faw is fixed their superior evasion score will mater allot more now. but for an escort to unleash a successful cannon alpha you basically have to hold still at point blank range and pound away, that seems counter intuitive, you have 0 evasion at that point, i guess doing that much damage and being that vulnerable is fair? maybe there needs to be a ECM tactical skill that buffs evasion? it can be tricky to pull off successful alphas, but it can be just as tricky for a cruiser to fire off its buffs at the right time and in the right order to keep its self alive through just about everything, and pick targets and activate its measly damage buffs against, and heal that team mate that just got jumped all at the same time. it plenty hard to fly every type of ship successfully, don't have much science ship experience to speak of, but im sure that's tricky to fly too.

FAW should be a damage over time single target beam buff when you have a target, when you have no target UP TO 5 beams should fire at random targets. so cannon rapid fire and scatter volley in one depending on if you have a target or not, with weaker damage over all, partly because beams do less damage anyway. beam overload is an instant spike damage skills, and is more useful to an escort with a duel beam bank then a cruiser. beam overload has more in common with a torpedo attack then any other beam or cannon skill. also torpedoes are completely useless against a shield tank, the bleed through damage needs to be dramatically increased as shields weaken on a sliding scale, ending with 100% bleed at 10% shields.

cruisers that can deal a lot of damage, but have a hard time getting any of it to hit escorts would be more canon accurate, and if cruisers can do real damage to each other that whole endless cruiser vs cruiser stalemate would be gone. consider adding torpedo skills to the engineering family too, cruisers should be able to do allot more with torpedoes then they can now. maybe just a passive 30 second buff to the number of normal torpedoes it fires after every cooldown?

in short, make those EPt changes, buff DEM a bit more, add a ECM tactical skill, and implement those FAW and torpedo suggestions and hell boost passive escort evasion again and i think cruiser and escort game play will be significantly more balanced and fun instead of drawn out, cheap or predictable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
07-10-2011, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
saying that cruisers shouldn't be damage dealers is absurd, and a disservice to the IP. what really needs to be done is an overhaul to the way large beam arrays work in game, but until that happens solutions need to be found in tweaking skills. escorts should excel at spike damage, everyone agrees with that, that's even accurate to what we see in the shows. cruisers set up with dps as their primary goal (as apposed to healing or tanking) should excel at damage over time which will only kill anyone in battles that are much longer then escort strikes. allot of that should come from engineering skills like DEM and EPtW, give it a 30 second damage buff along with EPtS 30 second resist buff. give EPtE and EPtA full 30 second bonuses too.

lets say a cruiser is facing as escort sideways and they are going to do a damage test. a full 8 beam broadside, and Nadion Inversion so it can use all those beams, with FAW should do less damage then the escort with CRF, 4 dual cannons and 3 turrets in the 10 seconds those skills are active. if no healing or defending against each others attacks take place during the 10 seconds, the cruiser should probably be dead and the escort nearly dead. throw in all the other damage buffs and resists and movement and you have normal game play. if an escort cant kill a cruiser before all its buffs run out it should probably retreat, getting in a slugging match is not were an escort excels, its not durable enough.

so a well piloted cruiser should beat an escort 1v1 every time, well that's how it is now anyway, i never loose to escorts 1v1. that's kind of ok though, the game shouldn't be balanced for 1v1 fights, an escort should be part of a joint attack, not going in solo and assassinating were ever it goes. now that faw is fixed their superior evasion score will mater allot more now. but for an escort to unleash a successful cannon alpha you basically have to hold still at point blank range and pound away, that seems counter intuitive, you have 0 evasion at that point, i guess doing that much damage and being that vulnerable is fair? maybe there needs to be a ECM tactical skill that buffs evasion? it can be tricky to pull off successful alphas, but it can be just as tricky for a cruiser to fire off its buffs at the right time and in the right order to keep its self alive through just about everything, and pick targets and activate its measly damage buffs against, and heal that team mate that just got jumped all at the same time. it plenty hard to fly every type of ship successfully, don't have much science ship experience to speak of, but im sure that's tricky to fly too.

FAW should be a damage over time single target beam buff when you have a target, when you have no target UP TO 5 beams should fire at random targets. so cannon rapid fire and scatter volley in one depending on if you have a target or not, with weaker damage over all, partly because beams do less damage anyway. beam overload is an instant spike damage skills, and is more useful to an escort with a duel beam bank then a cruiser. beam overload has more in common with a torpedo attack then any other beam or cannon skill. also torpedoes are completely useless against a shield tank, the bleed through damage needs to be dramatically increased as shields weaken on a sliding scale, ending with 100% bleed at 10% shields.

cruisers that can deal a lot of damage, but have a hard time getting any of it to hit escorts would be more canon accurate, and if cruisers can do real damage to each other that whole endless cruiser vs cruiser stalemate would be gone. consider adding torpedo skills to the engineering family too, cruisers should be able to do allot more with torpedoes then they can now. maybe just a passive 30 second buff to the number of normal torpedoes it fires after every cooldown?

in short, make those EPt changes, buff DEM a bit more, add a ECM tactical skill, and implement those FAW and torpedo suggestions and hell boost passive escort evasion again and i think cruiser and escort game play will be significantly more balanced and fun instead of drawn out, cheap or predictable.

Due to the nature of healing an resits in this game, the only damage that matters is burst damage. That is why I left my Tac/Excelsior behind back in Nov after almost a year of being a Tac/Cruiser. I could hit pretty hard but not enough quick enough against the zoombie squads. That said, giving EPTW a damage buff for 30 seconds is over that top IMO.

This is a game with three primary roles to fill. No one role should be able to perform two roles. Look, if you want to run a real DPS cruiser you have to focus on offensive ability and sacrifice defensive/healing abilities. Needless to say mine was very light on heals; I couldn't heal for $hiiz and I still barely ever died (Mini and RZR use to regularly pawn me though in Kerrat ). I ran with EPTW3 and though the buff was short lived, it was a nice boost for my DBB BO3. It afforded me the ability to run with 2x aux to dampeners with pretty high aux power and was therefore almost always immune to PSW (b4 PSW was changed, so pretty significant), my defense bonus was maxed, and double tapping BO3 at a weak shield facing because of a well spec'd tachyon beam followed by a tricobalt torpedo was pretty mean for a cruiser. I have no idea if the same tactics I used back then could work today or not. I do know there are some very good DPS Gal-Xs out there that know what they are doing, so DPS cruisers are still possible. Additionally, cruisers already benefit from having lower level weapon abilites for those that use beams (compare BO3 and FAW3 at Lt Com to CRF3 and CSV3 at Com).

People just need to figure out what they want to do and go after it. You can't be the master tank/healer and a master DPSer at the same time. There are tradeoffs... as there should be.

Aceton is an ability that could be modified IMO. It's virtually useless in PvP and not needed in PvE. If you don't want to jeopardize the balance of the game, it's best not to buff a power everyone can use (many unhappy players out there with the newest Tactical team for instance), instead you tweak the eng only abilities like DEM, Aceton, BP. That way only cruiser vessels are buffed. I mean if you make EPTW give a 30 sec bonus to dmg, you don't think escorts are going to want to figure out a build/tactic that incorporates it? But seriously, people are complaining that there healer star cruiser does no damage, and that is just ridiculous; it's a Star Cruiser people. As for FAW, it's good for clearing the spam, adding pressure to the teams targets, and applying debuffs (APB) to a lot of targets. It should not be the go to power it has been. I've rambled enough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
07-10-2011, 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain Brown
I see no problem with the current values.
That is why you fail.


Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
07-10-2011, 04:17 AM
Quote:
Due to the nature of healing an resits in this game, the only damage that matters is burst damage. That is why I left my Tac/Excelsior behind back in Nov after almost a year of being a Tac/Cruiser. I could hit pretty hard but not enough quick enough against the zoombie squads. That said, giving EPTW a damage buff for 30 seconds is over that top IMO.
This is not entirely true. Most spike attacks can be countered with good reflexes and teamwork among the healers, and when the next spike of that magnitude is ready, so will be the heals.

Constant DPS provides pressure that forces people to expend heals - then the spike can come and overwhelm the remaining heals. For 15 seconds after the enemy healer has used a few of his heals, he is most susceptible to a spike - because that's the time all related powers are down, including his next heal.

Post Fix-Post-Buff FAW was a strange hybrid of spike and pressure. It was DPS so high that it slowly eroded ships, no matter the amount of heals spent. It wasn't exactly spike damage, though, as it couldn't kill anyone quickly (except those poor decloaking ships that went into a FAW area without shields, of course.

What spike does is - it kills. DPS sets up a kill. You need spike, but you probably also need DPS.
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