Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 K'Vort Class Cruiser
07-14-2011, 05:33 AM
I know the topic of the K'Vort is fairly common, but since there are current dicussions sprouting in other threads, I figured its about time to have a fresh discussion entirely on the K'Vort.

The K'Vort Class Cruiser is missing from the Klingon Fleet, and should be the next ship to make its way to Klingon players. But how should be represented in game? What should it look like? How large should it be? What boff layouts should it have? What special abilities should it have? etc etc.

I'd like to start by giving my own thoughts on the matter.

Firstly, does the K'Vort exist in the prime timeline.
I know there are some who will raise the question whether the K'Vort Class actually exists in the prime timeline as it is a fairly common argument that it was only ever confirmed on-screen during an alternate timeline sequence in the episode "Yesterday's Enterprise".

However, during several DS9 episodes, K'Vort-Class Cruisers were actually named (though not seen) so we do have official canon confirmation that they do actually exist within the prime timeline. In one episode, Worf is said to have launched in an escape pod of a destroyed K'Vort-Class.

Secondly, its role - Cruiser or Raider (existing Birds of Prey in STO are all raiders).
The K'vort is always listed as a Cruiser, and everytime we have seen a big Bird of Prey in action throughout TNG it certainly behaved like one - fairly slow, quite powerful. We know that 2 K'Vort-Class cruisers can destroy a Galaxy-Class (Yesterday's Enterprise), and we know that 2 K'Vort's can also disable and potentialy destroy a Vor'Cha (Redemption Part 2). It, therefore, should exist within the Cruiser ship line.

Next, how powerful it is (weapon slots, hull, turn speed)
The K'Vort is described to be a "Light Cruiser" which, in STO's sense, places it somewhere between a Vor'Cha and a Qin Raptor. With that in mind, I think it should have the same weapon layout as a Vor'Cha (4 fore, 4 rear), with a turn rate of 12, and hull of 32k. This means it has the same firepower as a Vor'Cha, but is weaker in defense, but slightly quicker turn rate.

Next, boff layout.
Since the K'Vort is a cross between a cruiser and a Bird of Prey, I think the boff layout should represent that. As such, it should have the following boffs:

Commander Engineering
Lt. Commander Engineering
Lt. Science
Lt. Tactical
Ensign Universal

Next, special console.
The K'Vort should have a special console that gives the captain a "Wing Position" special ability. Unlike standard Birds of Prey, the K'vort's wings do not change in-and-out of combat but instead the captain can activate the special ability to raise or lower the wing while in system space. The neutral wing position is raised, and the wings will revert to raised (if lowered) during the warp animation. This fits closer with canon as K'Vorts have only been seen firing with wings raised, but the mechanisms to lower them still exist.

Next, Cloaking device.
Since the K'Vort is a Cruiser, and not a Raider, I think it should just have standard cloak and NOT use Battlecloak. Instead, its "uniqueness" comes from the fact that the wing position can be fixed.

And finally, the size.
The most commonly accepted K'Vort size is around 320-340m, giving it a length pretty similar to that of the Intrepid class (a little bigger than the T5 Hegh'ta Bird of Prey).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-14-2011, 06:02 AM
vampiric_hoshi, thank you for this thread.
In my timezone it's almost time for me to leave home and get some work done so if you had not opened up this thread I would have done so in a few hours myself, honoing Katic's request to take the discussion of missing ships like the K'Vort elsewhere.

Things I can agree on without reservation:
The ship exists with this name in the prime timeline:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ga_display.jpg

Size: about 350 meters is about right.
There's also Suricata's anlysis that backs this up:
http://suricatasblog.wordpress.com/2...-prey-paradox/

(Battle) Cruiser:
It was referred to a "cruiser" in "A Matter of Honor", where the ship also had some 30 or more crew and a mess hall gigantic compared to that on the Rotarren and it was referred to as "K'Vort" in the Gorkon Novel series.
The three ships that attacked the Enterprise in "Yesterday's Enterprise" were also called "Battlecruiser".

Some things I've been thinking about and where we might disagree:
Special ability:
One of the ships that attacked Gowron's ship in "Redemption" fired a torpedo that looked quite different from any torpedo ever used by other Klingon ships and when it impacted the shields of Gowron's Vor'cha, the shields did not just flare up like they were struck in a way similar to the Disruptor hits we saw earlier, it looked like the shields were somehow "fractured" by the hit.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9...1414h49m29.png

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/805...1414h50m03.png

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6...1414h50m16.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/159...1414h50m28.png

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1...1414h50m32.png

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2...1414h50m34.png

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6...1414h50m37.png

The not only bothered to create a new weapons effect instead of simply taking a Starfleet Photon Torpedo and make it green but they also bothered to create a totally new shield effect for the confrontation.
So I'd like to propose that a unique kind of torpedo attack for the K'Vort would be interesting and quite fitting.

As for a possible T5 configuration my propsal is one that would also differ quite a bit from yours.
It is based on the idea the the K'Vort was not seen in the various battles in DS9 but mentioned on mission like the Koraga was because it was used for such "intelligence" missions because it was suited for them as well as fighting ships bigger than themselves somewhat better than fighting ships much smaller than themselves like they would have been firced to do when going up against the Dominion.
So my proposal:

Engineering: Commander, Ensign
Science: Lieutenant Commander
Tactical: Lieutenant
Universal: Lieutenant

It's essentially an "Inverse Nebula" as far as it config is concerned, with a focus in Engineering and survivability but also capable of the "intelligence" part I was referring to earlier yet with some of the customization options we know from the smaller BoPs in STO without going overboard with it.

I'd propose an armament of "only" 4/3 reflecting that as a ship with a BoP-like hull shape it would have a "forward-oriented" armament.
A higher turnrate than the Vor'cha to offset this reduced allround firepower could easily be used to balance the ship while simultaneously reflecting that as a smaller and possible lighter ship it would be more maneuverable than the Vor'cha but also with some weaknesses when it comes to fighting off ships even more maneuverable than themselves like I mentioned above when it comes to Jem'Hadar Fighters.
I am sorry but my time's up right now so I can't go into more detail regarding my idea at the moment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-14-2011, 12:26 PM
I like the inverse nebula idea, it's a pretty balanced but unique looking bof layout.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-14-2011, 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Some things I've been thinking about and where we might disagree:
Special ability:
One of the ships that attacked Gowron's ship in "Redemption" fired a torpedo that looked quite different from any torpedo ever used by other Klingon ships and when it impacted the shields of Gowron's Vor'cha, the shields did not just flare up like they were struck in a way similar to the Disruptor hits we saw earlier, it looked like the shields were somehow "fractured" by the hit.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9...1414h49m29.png

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/805...1414h50m03.png

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6...1414h50m16.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/159...1414h50m28.png

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1...1414h50m32.png

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2...1414h50m34.png

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6...1414h50m37.png
I thought that was a re-use of stock footage from ST:3 when Kruge's BOP fired a similar torpedo at the Enterprise. From what I understand, TNG was kinda notorious for re-using footage from the movies.

Also, they might be related to the torpedoes from "Errand Of Mercy" as they were described as magnetic pulse weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Magnetic_pulse_weapon

I think I heard somewhere that Leonard Nimoy was kinda disappointed that the K'Tingas in the opening scene of ST:TMP used photon torpedoes to attack V'ger, rather than something consistent with the weapons described in "Errand Of Mercy" and insisted the BOP's weapons be more like the Magnetic Pulses.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-14-2011, 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
I thought that was a re-use of stock footage from ST:3 when Kruge's BOP fired a similar torpedo at the Enterprise. From what I understand, TNG was kinda notorious for re-using footage from the movies.
You've got to be kidding, this is what it looked like in Star Trek 3, please tell me how what I posted can be a re-use:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rd_torpedo.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
Also, they might be related to the torpedoes from "Errand Of Mercy" as they were described as magnetic pulse weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Magnetic_pulse_weapon

I think I heard somewhere that Leonard Nimoy was kinda disappointed that the K'Tingas in the opening scene of ST:TMP used photon torpedoes to attack V'ger, rather than something consistent with the weapons described in "Errand Of Mercy" and insisted the BOP's weapons be more like the Magnetic Pulses.
If he said so, it's the first time I heard of it.
Can you please link to a source?

The reason why the BoP was in that movie in the first place had entirely different reasons, same goes for the green weapon the ship used.
When Star Trek 3 was conceived, the enemy was supposed to be a Romulan.
However due to budged problems, that was later changed to the Klingons because uniforms for them were readily available from Star Trek 1.
Otherwise they would have had to design and produce entirely new Romulan uniforms for the ship's crew.
However by that time the "Romulan Bird of Prey", along with Romulan Markings and a Romulan cloaking device and a Romulan Plasma Torpedo Launcher special effect had already been created.
When the script was rewritten, there was supposed to be a line that Krige stole the ship from the Romulans.
But that was dropped.
That's what that weapon in Star Trek 3 actually is: a Plasma Torpedo launcher.
Compare the link I provided above with this:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ng_torpedo.jpg

It's just an updated version for the big screen.

As for the name "magnetic pulse" in that episode of TOS, please keep in mind that in the very same episode Kirk refers to Klingon hand weapons as "Klingon Phasers".
It's still Season 1 and many terms we use today did not exist back then.
Also what is a Photon Torpedo?
It's matter and antimatter seperated from each other by magnetic fields.
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Posts: 120
# 6
07-14-2011, 02:57 PM
The question is this:

Excelsior expy (role, overall setup, but its own special?) yes/no?
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# 7
07-14-2011, 03:49 PM
here's my view on the matter.

the K'vort was initally something of a retcon back in the days of TNG when the special effects shots led to inconsistant bird of prey sizes. so I think argueing their performance is slow and clumsy is a bit off, I'd argue the INTENT is for them to be fairly manuverable (in fairness a lotta their manuverability issues was proably just due to limits on the special effects.) honestly, I always thought the K'vort should just be a skin for the tier 5 bird of prey. Ultimately, the thing that sets the K'vort apart is it's "a big bird of prey that is bigger then the B'rel"

tmaking it a tier 5 skin would be approperate.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-14-2011, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
here's my view on the matter.

the K'vort was initally something of a retcon back in the days of TNG when the special effects shots led to inconsistant bird of prey sizes. so I think argueing their performance is slow and clumsy is a bit off, I'd argue the INTENT is for them to be fairly manuverable (in fairness a lotta their manuverability issues was proably just due to limits on the special effects.) honestly, I always thought the K'vort should just be a skin for the tier 5 bird of prey. Ultimately, the thing that sets the K'vort apart is it's "a big bird of prey that is bigger then the B'rel"

tmaking it a tier 5 skin would be approperate.
The reasons for the K'Vort were not the need for a retcon, but somewhat different ones.
The K't'inga model was unavailable for filming, as you can note in episodes like "The Emissary" the K't'inga is cut out of scenes from Star Trek 1 and then sometimes "cloaked" and then weapons effects are added.
It looks pretty poor.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ng_phasers.jpg

However the Vor'cha model was unavailable.
So only the BoP model was there to use for the first three seasons.
The large-scale BoPs were not a result of bad scaling:
They were deliberate.
Otherwise Kargan constantly calling the IKS Pagh a "Klingon cruiser" would not have been n the episode.
Please keep in mind the Pagh was the first BoP-style ship to appear in TNG and it already begins with the designation "cruiser".
So it cannot be a retcon from day 1 can it?
Because that would defeat the "re" in "retcon".
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Posts: 120
# 9
07-15-2011, 04:06 AM
a good place for a K'vort to fit in the klingon ship lineup is tier 3 in place of the ktinga. the ktinga should then be moved down to tier 1 in addition to the tier 1 BOP or in place of it. maybe a tier 5 Kvort that is an excelsior clone after that, but it would certainly have a better turn rate, dual cannon mounting, and a cloak. ya that would be to overpowered, just tier 3 would be best.
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# 10
07-15-2011, 04:30 AM
I wanna add my support for the K'Vort...lol!

As mentioned by a couple other posters, I think it fits in the Commander level tier 3 selection perfectly. I think you could kind of look at the K'Vort like the KDF Akira...a sort of heavy escort that almost can function like a cruiser. I would be happy with the same console slot and Boff layout as the Akira, maybe alternatively making one of the Boff slots universal.
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