Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
dear devs,

i know many of you dont actually watch star trek or are actual fans, but from a fan that was watched all star trek movies and shows, please look at the following episodes in the star trek series called "DS9" (short for deep space nine if you arent down with the "lingo")

DS9 season 5 episode 26 "Call to Arms"

DS9 season 6 episode 6 "Sacrafice of Angels"

if you actually watch these episodes you will clearly see the following:

in "Call to Arms", the "Dominion" attack DS9 with a mix of Dominion and cardassian ships.
in the episode it is clear at several points that Hideki attack ships are approximatly the same size (slightly less wide but as long) as Jem Hadar attack ships.
one could say its hard to see when ships are zooming around, but in one particular scene, a Hideki is destroyed with jemhadar ships in the slight background that are a little smaller, and then a Jem Hadar attack ship zooms by in the forground that is only slightly larger.

if you watch this episode closely you will see that the Hideki is clearly as wide as the carapace of the Jem Hadar attack ships, although the attack ship's nacels make it a little wider then the Hideki.
however the Hideki is clearly a little longer then the Kem Hadar attack ship.

in "Sacrafice of Angels", there is a massive fleet battle that involves the federation, dominion, cardassians and klingons.
in several scenes Peregrine fighters (only slightly smaller then DS9 Runabaouts, and about the same size as a star trek shuttle) attack cardassian ships, including Hideki destroyers. in the scene it is clear that the Hideki is several times larger then the peregrine fighters.
as it stands now the Hideki is portayed as a shuttle size ship in STO, and this is WRONG.
It is the same as making a B'rel Bird of prey the size of a runabout, or the defiant the same size as a type 8 shuttle.
IT IS JUST WRONG

in other episodes of DS9 Hidekis are seen to be approximately the same size as Jem Hadar attak ships, and even though the Brel Bird of Prey has a longer/wider wingspam than the Hideki, the Hideki is actually "bulkier" the the main body of the B'rel.

This means that the Hideki is NOT a shuttle, but an escort/raider size vessel.
Star trek wiki's and show informartion DO conflict about the size of the ship. originally the ship was to be a attack shuttle that was "significantly bigger then the runabout" but still small.
--> this was never actually shown on television.
however, when the shows were actually shot, plans changed, and the Hideki was made to be a cardassian escort, and is actually called a "destroyer" in sacrafice of angels.
a destroyer being an escort ship, significant in size, but much smaller than a cruiser.

to many this is not an important issue, with season 4 being a complete debacle and quagmire...

However, it is very annoying to see such a flagrant disregard for canan, and as it is, all the hard work the coders put into making the Hideki is wasted, since it cannot be seen in combat due to its small size.
it ALSO distresses me, that if cryptic actually ever makes a cardassian faction, they will lack a raider/escort ship for the cardassians, as the Hideki will be miss-classed as a shuttle...

the ship is scene CLEARLY in the shows, and enjoyed by star trek fans when watching the show, because it is potrayed larger then it is in STO, and can be clearly seen in the massive DS9 space melees that made the show famous!

perhaps if cryptic actually admitted to making mistakes once and a while, and had the inegrity to retract incorrect decisions, the game would be running much smoother then it is today.
but as it is cryptic forces bad ideas and mistakes down the throats of its paying customers, or sweeps these mistakes and bugs under the rug, completely ignoring them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-12-2011, 02:43 PM
The problem is that the same episodes, plus more, in the same series, clearly show the defiant at various different sizes and scales. So there is no actual way of telling if the size of the Hideki seen in some episodes is correct in compilation to others much like the defiant can't be scaled that way.

That said, none of the scaling in the game is correct, all the small ships are bigger than they need to be, like the runabout and delta flyer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-12-2011, 02:57 PM
*nods a bit* And if these ships / shuttles were to scale they'd be all but impossible to see (or target in PvP).

Checking the Defiant against DS9 for example, then checking a Galaxy Class against DS9 and then comparing Galaxy Class ships against the Defiant (all in the series) will show differences. Scaling is sadly not always 100% in the Series.

We always do our best to make sure that at least in the game we have things as linear and consistent as possible. Sometimes that means we make a judgment call. (Watch the TNG Episode "Disaster" in French sometime. The rank of "Commander" is translated 3 different ways in that one episode. So we picked one out of the three that was used the most in the series.)


As for us not being Trek fans... well, you'll just have to believe that I have never seen as much Trek material in the cubicles in any office I worked in. And, yes, I'm counting my own toys.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WishStone
*nods a bit* And if these ships / shuttles were to scale they'd be all but impossible to see (or target in PvP).

Checking the Defiant against DS9 for example, then checking a Galaxy Class against DS9 and then comparing Galaxy Class ships against the Defiant (all in the series) will show differences. Scaling is sadly not always 100% in the Series.

We always do our best to make sure that at least in the game we have things as linear and consistent as possible. Sometimes that means we make a judgment call. (Watch the TNG Episode "Disaster" in French sometime. The rank of "Commander" is translated 3 different ways in that one episode. So we picked one out of the three that was used the most in the series.)


As for us not being Trek fans... well, you'll just have to believe that I have never seen as much Trek material in the cubicles in any office I worked in. And, yes, I'm counting my own toys.
QFT^

In all honesty this is the truth. As game developers there need to be sacrifices of Lore made for game play. (and vice versa) in this case the sacrifice was realistic scaling for balance. If the Defiant, or Peregrin, or B'rel (if it is the B'rel and not the K'vort, sorry Wishy but given its size and 30 crew members it's more K'vort than B'rel) would be so small that you couldn't click them if they were moving. They could hide amongst mines or launched fighters and you'd have to cycle through the tab key to find them.

In this they sacrificed Lore for Gameplay. If they hadn't the forums would have been swamped from day one complaining about not being able to target the smaller ships. The Nerf the Spam™ cries would be massive. This would lead to nerfs, counter nerfs, buffs, counter buffs, it would be a mess and would lead to Bad Things™.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-12-2011, 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor_Forthright View Post
That said, none of the scaling in the game is correct, all the small ships are bigger than they need to be, like the runabout and delta flyer.
I think dstahl or CapnLogan addressed this once, but if the small ships were actually correctly scaled, they'd be very hard to see by players, and it would be difficult to enjoy their artwork - one might as well be flying around a pixel that shoots phasers and torpedoes.

Speaking of which, effects would look comical unless special weapons effects were created for small craft. The diameter of a phaser beam would probably be larger than the entire small craft.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
07-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post
I think dstahl or CapnLogan addressed this once, but if the small ships were actually correctly scaled, they'd be very hard to see by players, and it would be difficult to enjoy their artwork - one might as well be flying around a pixel that shoots phasers and torpedoes.

Speaking of which, effects would look comical unless special weapons effects were created for small craft. The diameter of a phaser beam would probably be larger than the entire small craft.
Well, there's a problem that can easily be solved. (I'm not saying it's ideal, but it is resolvable.)

How do you solve the problem of ships too small to be seen vs the larger ones? Well, making the smaller ships smaller isn't an option for the aforementioned reasons. So, go the other direction. Make the larger ships larger (until correct in scale).

Problem solved. On the other hand, Galaxy class ships would find it difficult to fight unless they scrolled well out... but yeah.

Having said all that, I do agree that the shows had scaling issues (in fact, Drexler mentions this in his model blog). It was never truly consistent. Defiant, for example, has 5 decks -- making it slightly over 1/10th the 'height' of a Galaxy class ship (with the proportionally smaller crew complement capacity). Yet, unfortunately, it often appeared as large as one in the show.

To give you an idea, Galaxy class ships are roughly 'twice' the dimensions of a Constitution class vessel. However, in 3 dimensional logic, 2^3 = 8. So, as the TNG tech manual points out, it had roughly 8 times the internal volume of a Constitution class vessel. This would mean that Defiant class ships would be significantly smaller in internal volume.

I digress. In the interests of game play, I can understand why the devs made their decision. However, the direction presented by Wishstone isn't the only possible one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
07-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WishStone
*nods a bit* And if these ships / shuttles were to scale they'd be all but impossible to see (or target in PvP).

Checking the Defiant against DS9 for example, then checking a Galaxy Class against DS9 and then comparing Galaxy Class ships against the Defiant (all in the series) will show differences. Scaling is sadly not always 100% in the Series.

We always do our best to make sure that at least in the game we have things as linear and consistent as possible. Sometimes that means we make a judgment call. (Watch the TNG Episode "Disaster" in French sometime. The rank of "Commander" is translated 3 different ways in that one episode. So we picked one out of the three that was used the most in the series.)


As for us not being Trek fans... well, you'll just have to believe that I have never seen as much Trek material in the cubicles in any office I worked in. And, yes, I'm counting my own toys.
Given how inconsistent scaling is in canon... I think you can be eaisly forgiven imo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-12-2011, 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor_Forthright View Post
QFT^

In all honesty this is the truth. As game developers there need to be sacrifices of Lore made for game play. (and vice versa) in this case the sacrifice was realistic scaling for balance. If the Defiant, or Peregrin, or B'rel (if it is the B'rel and not the K'vort, sorry Wishy but given its size and 30 crew members it's more K'vort than B'rel) would be so small that you couldn't click them if they were moving. They could hide amongst mines or launched fighters and you'd have to cycle through the tab key to find them.

In this they sacrificed Lore for Gameplay. If they hadn't the forums would have been swamped from day one complaining about not being able to target the smaller ships. The Nerf the Spam™ cries would be massive. This would lead to nerfs, counter nerfs, buffs, counter buffs, it would be a mess and would lead to Bad Things™.
Keep in mind that the only power this affects is Boarding party, possibly the worst, most brainless power in the game in that it uses Shuttles. Which in theory must some how penetrate a shield of an enemy ship and either get close enough, while they're performing evasive maneuvers, to latch on or beam aboard. Not to mention each shuttle we see has a compliment of what? 10 people or something?

It should be a debuff that only activates if a target's facing shields are down and can be stopped by Tactical Team like it is now. Shuttles shouldn't have even appeared in that regard.

Also, if a player shuttle or 5 are swarming my Galaxy class ship and manage to beat me then good on them. That's what tab targeting and FAW and torpedo spread are for...

In actuality I can't think of a single solid reason for shuttles to not be half the size they are on our screens.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
07-12-2011, 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuntKathy
Well, there's a problem that can easily be solved. (I'm not saying it's ideal, but it is resolvable.)

How do you solve the problem of ships too small to be seen vs the larger ones? Well, making the smaller ships smaller isn't an option for the aforementioned reasons. So, go the other direction. Make the larger ships larger (until correct in scale).

Problem solved. On the other hand, Galaxy class ships would find it difficult to fight unless they scrolled well out... but yeah.
True, yes... then again, I'm not a massive fan of huge scaling differences.
Imagine trying to fight a tiny ship with the combat we have in STO while in a huge ship. Not only would trying to see it be difficult, but you'd also run into troubles such as fireing archs. What a headache. :\
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
07-12-2011, 10:05 PM
Two things I never do is argue scale in Both in Star Trek and in Transformers :p

Doing so your brain might explode.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:28 AM.