Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
07-15-2011, 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Instead, let's take Battle Cloak. It has a 15 second cooldown after you decloak, but then you can use it at any time.

Why not create a version of Battle Cloak that has only a 2-3 second cooldown after decloak? And then we call that "Enhanced Battle CLoak" and put it on the B'rel.
I don't know man, I think that that would just make things harder for B'Rel pilots; my reasoning is that the ship is considerably more flimsy than the standard T5 with the hit-and-run setups you see, and I don't really see that changing with a quick cloak design, I just see continued dependence on the cloak by pilots.

I think that the answer is to grant the ship some sort of bonus while using the cloak, like a partial shield penetration, or +20% torpedo damage if fired while cloaked, or something along those lines and have the trade-off be that the ship is more easily detected after attacking.

I don't know, just a thought.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
07-15-2011, 08:29 AM
Why on earth is there a philosophical discussion on the ethics of battlecloak? Utterly pointless. It's a game and the damn cloaking ships tend to lose something to gain the ability. This is all feeding into that ridiculous Fed BOP-Deathmachine propaganda.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
07-15-2011, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnogE00F
Or: There is nothing more honorable than victory.
If you can justify everything, then the whole concept is pointless IMHO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SnogE00F
Why on earth is there a philosophical discussion on the ethics of battlecloak? Utterly pointless.
No, it's not pointless, quite the contrary.
Because ethics are very important if someone claims to be honorable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnogE00F
It's a game and the damn cloaking ships tend to lose something to gain the ability. This is all feeding into that ridiculous Fed BOP-Deathmachine propaganda.
Fed BoP ?!?

If you give them ANOTHER ability in exchange for the Battlecloak, then where is the problem?


Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
07-15-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm sorry this is ridiculous. Don't apply your own sense of honor to Klingon Honor.

They are very different things, and we lack any cultural background to understand the ins and outs of it. It is afterall, fictional, so the definition of honor varies episode to episode and movie to movie.

It is an alien culture, one with concepts similar to concepts in our own, but nothing that directly translates 1:1, making any claims of what is and isn't honorable irrelevant.

This thread also has nothing to do with Klingon honor, it is about a broken game mechanic.


Personally I'm not even sure what is still broken with EBC, and what may have changed since its release.

Something to keep in mind, though, is that reworking various weapons has been stated as a dev goal, specifically transphasic torpedoes. It could be that if those get a proper revamp, EBC might be more useful for transphasics. But that probably isn't enough either. I do think that maybe it should get bonuses to torpedo use, to represent how it was used in canon. Then again, that is probably too much of a niche use for it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
07-15-2011, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
I am fine with having them normal cloak, but instead of being able to run away from a battle, klingon players should be encouraged to fight to the death.
(I think it would suit much better to klingons than constantly runnning away.)
So instead of giving them a even better opportunity to flee from battle they should rather get a permanent "go down fighting" power, just passive so they do more damage the closer death comes.
I love how the Fed definition of "Klingon honor" is "they should hold still and let me kill them, WHY AREN'T THEY LETTING ME KILL THEM?"
Lt. Commander
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# 16
07-17-2011, 12:18 PM
Now, Yeodred, if you are genuinely interested in discussing Klingon Honor... Please open a thread to do so. This isn't exactly the right thread (not even the right subform) to do it. This is about fixing Enhanced Battlecloak.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 17
07-18-2011, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
It seems the fix to the Enhanced Battle Cloak is not easy. I can only guess why that is so, to be honest, so my fix is also only a guess on what could be faster.

Let's forget for a moment entirely how Enhanced Battle Cloak works.

Instead, let's take Battle Cloak. It has a 15 second cooldown after you decloak, but then you can use it at any time.

Why not create a version of Battle Cloak that has only a 2-3 second cooldown after decloak? And then we call that "Enhanced Battle CLoak" and put it on the B'rel.

The play dynamic would be very different from what we have now, to be sure - you wouldn't be able to just fire a torp or a power at cloak - you need to conciously cloak, use all abilities you want to use, and then cloak again. It will require some more micro-management, essentially, but in exchange the issues of Enhanced Battle Cloak as it is now are gone. As a "drawback" it won't feel like the original version of cloak as people wouldn't just fire torps when decloaking, they could use everything.

Why it might be easier than fixing Enhanced Battle Cloak: It's basically just replacing one number for a cooldown for another. It doesn't require thinking and changing the interaction with dozens of powers and weapons.
I can see this as one possible solution.

Another I see is the canon approach: Eliminate decloak-to-fire for Torpedoes completely with the EBC.

After all, unless your enemy is foolish enough to un-equip their shields completely, no battle can be won solely by Torpedoes, so why the decloak at all? Just disallow Boff powers that affect torpedoes from actually taking affect while cloaked, that way people can still prep normal decloak-and-Alpha Strikes, but can't use HYIII Plasma Torps, at point blank range from cloak, for example.

I've wondered for awhile now why it didn't work that way from the beginning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 18
07-19-2011, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
The point is not just to win a battle, but to win with honor.
Jam haddar can win battles too, they don't care for honor, klingons (should) do.
Game mechanics should urge players to play less like jem haddar (or duras ).
Just my opinion.

Live long and prosper.
Not to continue the whole ethics debate, but the whole "that is not honourable therefore klingons cant do it" argument is really starting to get on my nerves with STO.

Klingons, and especially the concept of Klingon Honour, is nowhere near as black and white as people seem to think. That is precisely why even Klingons themselves often have difficulty understanding what is, or is not, considered "honourable".

As it stands, whether or not cloaking during combat is "honourable" is dependant on the reasoning behind doing it.

If you're cloaking specifically to run from a fight then yes its more romulan and less klingon. However, if you're using it as a tool to regroup and prepare a second strike, which is precisely what the majority of klingon players use it for, then it is indeed an honourable use of the cloak. There is no honour in just running in and dieing either, so if you use a decloak, attack, and recloak in an effort to find a weakness before beginning your actual strike, then that too is also an honourable use.

Point is, there are a hundred different ways at looking at it with just as many scenarios being honourable as there dishonourable. That distinction between the two is the Klingon holly grail.

As far as the B'Rel's cloak is concerned, it doesn't matter how you dress it up, Feds are always going to complain that it's overpowered and unfair which is precisely why it has wound up in the sorry mess that it is currently in.

In my opinion we should stop looking for excuses as to why a small ship is as powerful as a T5 ship needs to be, and simply give the B'Rel exactly the same stats as the Hegh'Ta. If it really needs a unique ability, then give it the following;

Periscope - Captain takes hold of the periscope
Gives the BoP increased damage for x-seconds

Everything would then be fine and balanced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
07-29-2011, 12:21 AM
The ethical debate surrounding battlecloaks is ridiculous the battle cloak is like any combat tool which adds survivability and is no less valid in game then using shields to protect your ship.

Battle cloaks are just the favourite complaint of the underskilled . Ask anybody who loves to harp on battle cloak to post fraps of them selves pvp'ing and getting killed by it and they won't do it. Why because the second they throw that up on youtube they know that they will have the comments start rolling in " whats that doing on your bar!" " where did you get that build" "wtf is that doing on your ship/class" " dude lol...." and they will have just proved that it wasn't the enemy that killed them it was their ignorance in game mechanics.

Finally considering the fact that battle cloak has a 20sec CD after decloaking and how flimsy a BoP really is. If you can't either ensnare or destroy that ship within those 20sec you and your team have already done so many things wrong with your skills/equip that the battle cloak wont really make a difference anyhow you were dead before you even queued for pvp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
07-29-2011, 01:05 PM
All I know is... I just about never use my cloaks... unless I need to go afk for a minute.
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