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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I think the retrofit ships are too attractive to use over the base T5 ships. These are supposed to represent the pinnacle of Starfleet tech, yet the Sovereign is overshadowed by the Excelsior, the DSSV and RSV are overshadowed by the Intrepid, and so forth.

So here is my proposal for the non-retrofit T5 ships:

Assault Cruiser: Remove tactical Ensign, convert tactical Lieutenant into tactical Lt. Cmdr.
Star Cruiser: Remove science Ensign, convert science Lieutenant into science Lt. Cmdr.

Advanced Escort: Remove science Ensign, convert science Lieutenant into science Lt. Cmdr.
Fleet Escort: Remove engineer Ensign, convert engineer Lieutenant into engineer Lt. Cmdr.

Deep Space Science Vessel: Remove engineer Ensign, convert engineer Lieutenant into engineer Lt. Cmdr.
Reconnaissance Science Vessel: Remove tactical Ensign, convert tactical Lieutenant into tactical Lt. Cmdr.

This would turn the base T5 ships into the advanced 25th century ships they're supposed to be.


...But wait, I'm not finished yet! I also think the Galaxy-R, Intrepid-R and Defiant-R need a refit. I think they are far too specialised when they might be better with a little more versatility thrown in. Bear with me on this one.

All retrofit ships: Change Ensign boff to universal.

Galaxy-R: Add tactical console slot, make saucer separation a removable engineering console.
Defiant-R: Add science console slot, make cloaking device a removable tactical console.
Intrepid-R: Add engineering console slot, make ablative armor generator a removable science console.

Now the retrofit ships are unique in their ability to mimic the current configuration of the stock T5 ships, with a real drawback to their primary mission focus if they use their special ability. The Galaxy-R can now match the base damage of the Sovereign or Excelsior - but if you want to turn like an escort, you'll have to sacrifice some tanking ability. The Intrepid is now slightly tougher, but if you want the ablative armor, your science powers won't be quite as strong as they otherwise would be. Ditto for the Defiant and cloaking vs weapon damage.

But what about the Excelsior, Nebula and D'Kyr class?

I think the Excelsior is pretty well balanced as it is. It's as tough as any T5 cruiser, but far more agile and its combat ability would still be on par with the Sovereign if the change above were made. But its tanking wouldn't be quite as effective, and it has the agility and transwarp as a tradeoff.

I think the Nebula class needs a boost in the form of a 4th Forward weapon slot. This would make it truly unique amongst all science ships without resorting to making it like the others with a different skin.

The D'kyr is an excellent science ship, doing for Science what the Excelsior does for combat. I think it should remain unchanged.

I'd really appreciate feedback from everyone on this idea, but I hope the Cryptic staff see it too and say something about it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-17-2011, 03:39 PM
I want to present an important point to this; Iconic Appeal Factor.

What is it? Its my name for this principle;

That given the choice between a new design just shown to them, and an iconic show design that they have developed an attachment to, most players want the Iconic show ship rather than the new design.

Thats just a fancy way of saying that people love to captain ships featured in the shows or movies, especially if they sport abilities used on screen like cloaking devices, MVAM, armor, separation et al.

Its the same reason some people stubbornly fly Akiras and Galaxy-X's even beyond their viable tier.

Just a point to add to the table.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-17-2011, 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan_Kent View Post
I want to present an important point to this; Iconic Appeal Factor.
I completely agree with your assessment. Which is why I'm suggesting giving the base T5 ships a real tangible BOFF advantage. I think more people will be inclined to use them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-17-2011, 04:29 PM
I entirely agree with your proposal, Forgotten-Nemesis.

Giving out better Boff stations to the ships that have the less bells-and-whistles makes a whole lot of sense to me. In fact, I'd probably go and reduce the Excelsior Refit to 1 Lt and 1 En tactical stations rather than the LtC one. The Excelsior IS older and already is somewhat more nimble.

Of course, seeing folks like their Excelsior Refits and are happy with its Boff station loadout, such a change would inevitably summon the anger of angry pitchfork-wielding subscribers.

Anyhow - to sum up: I dig it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-17-2011, 07:50 PM
i like the VA retrofit console changes a lot, those sound perfect. for the standard RA ships i would go a step farther. for each ship's secondary focus, that focus should get the commander station, and for all tier 5 ships the ensign station should be universal.

so a sovereign should have a com tac, ltcom eng, lt eng, lt sci, ens uni

a fleet escort would have a com eng, ltcom tac, lt tac, lt sci, ens uni

a recon science would have com tac, ltcom sci, lt sci, lt eng, ens uni

a galaxy R should have com eng, ltcom eng, lt tac, lt sci, ens uni

the retrofit VA ships would be the only ones with a commander station in their normal place
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
07-17-2011, 08:02 PM
I like the idea, but what are your thoughts on the Galaxy-X?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
07-17-2011, 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzy
I like the idea, but what are your thoughts on the Galaxy-X?
The Gal-X is a bit of a quandary as it has already been buffed. It has the Galaxy-R's tank with a cloak and a special weapon, and yet players still say it's underpowered. I don't think it deserves a Lt. Cmdr tactical boff due to the phaser lance being rather like Beam Overload 3. Its problems stem from its weaponry being useless on such a slow turning platform. I think the best way to refit would be:

-1 Engineer console, +1 Tactical console
+1 Turn rate
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-17-2011, 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzy
I like the idea, but what are your thoughts on the Galaxy-X?
maybe even make the whole X treatment a tactical console you can put on a gal R, but you can only have the separation console or the X console, not both at once equipped.

also, instead of buying new R versions of the tier 4 ships, they should just auto upgrade to tier 5 when you reach RA but you can only buy and use those ability consoles when you reach va. if the current tier 5 ships get the station setup i proposed, it would be nice to still have ships available at RA that have commander level stations in their normal place
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
07-17-2011, 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
I think the retrofit ships are too attractive to use over the base T5 ships. These are supposed to represent the pinnacle of Starfleet tech, yet the Sovereign is overshadowed by the Excelsior, the DSSV and RSV are overshadowed by the Intrepid, and so forth.
Interesting ideas, but I must disagree, I strongly believe that the route to take is not what you're suggesting, and I'll get to why in a second; the better route to take would be to either allow people to make one-time adjustments to their BO-type layouts, or grant the current non-retrofit T5s each a special ability in console form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Assault Cruiser: Remove tactical Ensign, convert tactical Lieutenant into tactical Lt. Cmdr.
So two Lt. Cmdr slots then, no thanks; the alternative is an identical layout to the Excelsior and that's already a controversial ship as far as the pvpand canon communities are concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Star Cruiser: Remove science Ensign, convert science Lieutenant into science Lt. Cmdr.
No, the ship would become the single toughest ship and the best healer in the entire game as it is able to both the top tier eng and science healing abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Advanced Escort: Remove science Ensign, convert science Lieutenant into science Lt. Cmdr.
That would be the MVAM layout, assuming that you're not talking about two Lt. Cmdr slots again; if you are then it's OP, if not then it still makes for an extremely tough escort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Fleet Escort: Remove engineer Ensign, convert engineer Lieutenant into engineer Lt. Cmdr.
Again it's an epically tough escort as it would be able to use things like Eng Team 3 or EPtS 3, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Deep Space Science Vessel: Remove engineer Ensign, convert engineer Lieutenant into engineer Lt. Cmdr.
A mini-Nebula......no thanks.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Reconnaissance Science Vessel: Remove tactical Ensign, convert tactical Lieutenant into tactical Lt. Cmdr.
The combination of max science with high power tac is a recipe for QQ on these forums and in the right hands the ship would drop a lot of opponents in 1v1 situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
All retrofit ships
Changing the ensign slots alters the design purposes of the ships as they are meant to have more than just design differences, move the ensign and you change the reason to have the ship vs. the others.

Additionally, the dev's have stated that they are already debating whether or not to change most of the special abilities into console form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
I think the Nebula class needs a boost in the form of a 4th Forward weapon slot. This would make it truly unique amongst all science ships without resorting to making it like the others with a different skin.
You NEVER want to give a science ship a 7th weapon slot, they are dangerous enough in the hands of good players, it would unbalance the game drastically to give them additional weapons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
07-17-2011, 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
So two Lt. Cmdr slots then, no thanks;
"No thanks" is a meaningless comment. Please think for a little while and come back with an actual criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
the ship would become the single toughest ship and the best healer in the entire game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
it's OP, if not then it still makes for an extremely tough escort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Again it's an epically tough escort as it would be able to use things like Eng Team 3 or EPtS 3, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
The combination of max science with high power tac is a recipe for QQ on these forums and in the right hands the ship would drop a lot of opponents in 1v1 situations.
So I gather that your main criticism is that all the standard T5 ships would be overpowered. You haven't really explained how or why they would be. And even if they were, doesn't the fact that you say they'd all be equally overpowered mean that they might just be balanced with each other?

You also fail to remember that Tier 3 boff abilities outside your main profession have to be bought from the exchange or trained by others, meaning they won't be everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
A mini-Nebula......no thanks.....
Come back with a valid criticism. Stop using the words "no thanks" because they have no value in any discussion anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Changing the ensign slots alters the design purposes of the ships as they are meant to have more than just design differences, move the ensign and you change the reason to have the ship vs. the others.
This is pure nonsense. How do universal ensigns alter the design purposes of the retrofit ships? Explain how. How does it change the reason to use the retrofit ships? You have not made any sense whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Additionally, the dev's have stated that they are already debating whether or not to change most of the special abilities into console form.
I know this. That's one of the reasons I started this thread, because it incorporates the devs' future plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
You NEVER want to give a science ship a 7th weapon slot, they are dangerous enough in the hands of good players, it would unbalance the game drastically to give them additional weapons.
One extra beam array? Are you joking? Please tell me you're joking because nobody with a basic grasp of space combat would claim an extra weapon slot would unbalance the whole game "drastically".
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