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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
07-19-2011, 01:56 PM
I guess I don't see what is so bad about it right now...I still think it is too soon to rework anything in a major way. The pacing is good, people are having fun...I dunno. Maybe I'm not enough of a hard-core PvP guy, but most of my matches are just a lot of fun. (Well, when the other team puts up a fight, a lot of times it is really one-sided and that's no fun).

I love that the engi abilities are useful now, you can set up little fortresses at bottle-necks. And my sci guy has fun stripping shields and firing off radiation right as people run around corners then getting a kill notice five seconds later. And charging people with my space-shotgun because most of them don't realize how easily they can kill me.

I guess I have not had much problem with being one-shotted by tacs, but maybe I'm just lucky? I tend to pop in and out of cover a lot and I'm pretty careful not to get caught in the middle of an open space whilst alone, so maybe that's it?
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I have noticed a lot of people are still trying to 'tank' on the ground, which just gets you killed *super* fast now...but honestly I'm thrilled that the dynamic isn't the same old tank/dps/healer that you find in every other MMO. This is more like a slow paced FPS with tons of crazy abilities than the traditional MMO experience.
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Man, last night I had so much fun doing ground PvP...my favorite was a Klink vs fed that ended 29-30 with four out of five members on both teams keeping tight and playing well (there's always one, lol).

My favorite 'moment' was assaulting the bridge on the starship map against a Klink group that was doing a good job of defense. Popping in and out, using cover shields and turrets, hiding behind consoles...so much fun.
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TL;dr-- I think it's too soon to 'fix' ground PvP, because I'm not convinced about what's broken. Certainly, players have not figured out the nuances yet and trying to mess with it now (outside of genuine bugs) is just going to sow chaos.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
07-19-2011, 02:02 PM
If they can figure something out on the respawning though that would be nice, although I'm not sure what they need to do on the smaller maps. Once you shatter a team it can be hard for them to make it back in the game if they never get a chance to re-group...honestly, I'm not sure how to solve it on small maps with 5 player teams.

Maybe respawn timers like you see in some games, where there is a 45 second window between respawns or something so if a team gets wiped they are more likely to remain cohesive?


The only other thing I can think of is 'safe' areas to respawn in with guards/forcefields, but now you're talking about reworking every ground map and I don't see that happening.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
07-19-2011, 02:55 PM
I do not understand what you guys find wrong.

If you were playing Battlefield 1942, would you complain everytime someone snipes you in the head and one-shot you? Would you cry if a single grenade thrown at you was killing you and two of your close teamates?

People asked for faster combat and that is just what we got. Sure, it is not a real FPS but it is very looking the same on many levels. Players mostly have the same HP, the same firepower and the same counter-measures. Beyond that, it comes down to who shoots faster and who manages to flank the enemy the first.

Flanking and rear attacks are unforgiving just AS THEY SHOULD BE.

It took me about 2 weeks to adapt to the new system but by now i can say that PvE is still as easy stupid as it used to be most of the time.

And about PvP, i find it exciting even if death seems to be coming faster than before. It makes for quicker match and then you can restart again and get even faster rewards.

It is really not hard. You die, you respawn, and you try again. There are no bad weapons anymore ( except melee maybe ). Any good hit in the back of someone and it will hurt alot. Flanking and covering fire makes sense now. Line of sight and weapon max range also affects combat. What's not to like?

About spawn camping: that existed since the first PvP game ever came out on the market. Yes, i know it is not cool and not fair but do not bring this argument to say that the new ground combat is broken. That is a complete other matter imho.

Learn. Adapt. Overcome.


( Edited for typos )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
07-19-2011, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
I do not understand what you guys find wrong.

If you were playing Battlefield 1942, would you complain everytime someone snipes you in the head and one-shot you?

( Edited for typos )
Battlefield 2142 for me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
07-19-2011, 05:10 PM
I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I agree on some points and they have been brought to the attention to other devs (The spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser, the refusing to respawn, even the complaint that personal shields feel 'too weak in pvp.') But like others have said, I think its still too early to tell in some areas that complaints have come in about as people have only had a week and a half to adapt to the ground combat overhaul. Both in PvE and PvP.

I did some playtesting on Holodeck last week and today with some folks. I got some good feedback both from my own personal point of view and from the PvPers I was with. Tacs that are going stealth and one-shotting with a Pulse Wave gun, mmm...I don't even think that's particularly an issue with the weapon itself. I tried getting point blank with a pulse wave gun multiple times, not as a tac to see if it was SPECIFIC to the weapon. Couldn't do it. That's more of a player knowledge/skill thing where the player goes, "I'm a Tactical Officer, If I max out all my DPS with buffs and good equipment, go stealth, use this weapon and go up behind someone and do flanking damage, I can one-shot them." So, not the weapon by itself is an issue.

I'm actually wanting to know exactly how we can make existing ground PvP better. So far here is what I've gotten, compiled and delivered off:

- Cryo Grenades+CRM-200=1-shot kill with the alternate fire of the weapon. The weapon by itself is fine, but the Cryo Grenade is an issue.

- Personal Shields feel too weak in PvP. PvPers HAVE to use Capacity and Regen bonuses on personal shields because without they would die even faster. (I was in discussions with CrypticGecko about this specific issue earlier today, and I will keep compiling feedback about what we can do to come to a happy middle since this would also affect ground PvE as well )

- The Pulse Wave/Shotgun weapons by themselves are not an issue, but a Stealth, fully buffed Tactical Officer with a Pulse Wave is an issue with one-shotting people from behind.

- There is an issue with players refusing to respawn, keeping people in the PvP map. I forwarded this off to dstahl today to see what we can do about that (I did suggest we do a force respawn after a timer in PvP only, but we'll see what they decide.)

- Spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser are an issue. Spawn camping eminent.

I think I've covered all of the bases for ground PvP issues, but if you can tell me in a constructive manner if I missed anything, let me know! I'm out to help out the ground PvP experience be even better than what pre-S4 offered with this new overhaul done.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
07-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
People asked for faster combat and that is just what we got.
People asked for faster PVE combat. The people that played Ground PvP regularly repeatedly stated that GPvP was fine. The benefits of the new combat are mostly that it got a lot more people playing GPvP, which is great because it was pretty much a ghost town before. I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just saying that as far as PvP is concerned, Ground was perfectly fine before S4, other than population issues - which were likely due to the fact that no one liked the PvE game enough to try it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
07-19-2011, 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
As far as the naming issue goes, change your UI options to only display names and reticules around Enemy PCs, and to not display anything around enemy NPCs unless moused over or targeted.

That way, anybody who tries to disguise themselves will stick out like a sore thumb.

There ia also an option that disables auto targeting of npc's. You will have to click on the real security escort. The phony is toast.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
07-19-2011, 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuccaneerDTB
I did GPvP all weekend against, and sometimes with some of the best. I found it to be pretty balanced overall. Engineer spam is easy enough to kill or avoid. Tactical one shot kills can be avoided a lot.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't easy. A good team can frustrate you real quick. But if we adapt, grow, learn, and have a good team ourselves victory is possible.

The maps are a part of the problem. In a narrow corridor a tight group with AoE can kill groups almost instantly. Players have to learn to regroup and use long range weappns and cover. And get used to dieing. It is a part of PvP.

That said, some PvP fleets could ease up a bit. Maybe tell, and allow the other team to regroup. Not in a close match, but when it gets to 20-0. Back away from the spawn points so people feel like you mean it when you say gg.

Refusing to respawn is an immature way of handling things. We know what we are getting into when we click that que. We should see it to the finish. Even if the opponents are not good sportsmen, we punish our own teamates by forcing them to go it alone. 30 points is slow going by ones or twos.

I am not calling anyone immature, just the action. And we all feel like it sometimes.


I concur! I feel it is basically ballanced I just think that most of us are still suffering from a learning curve. It is alot different. As an engineer, I have had to learn to hit my shield heal first, drop a cover shield, pop a hypo than fall back and use my sniper or send a drone in to sofen em up. Its all real fast. And you gotta work the map and work the cover. Chargin right up the ramp is not always the best approach.

Not to say that some balancing is not needed, I just dont see it as a game stopper. I will be pvp'n tonight, and I am leveling 2 more toons just for gpvp. I love it and I cant get enough. Even when I'm getting steam rolled there are things to learn. There are counters to every assault.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
07-19-2011, 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felderburg View Post
which were likely due to the fact that no one liked the PvE game enough to try it..
Nope. It's actually due to the fact that a ground PvP map could take upwards of an hour+ to get all the kills and that's not counting the epic wait times for some of the 1/100th of a percent of the playerbase that played them to log into a queue.

The ground PvP queues being empty has nothing, in any shape or form, to do with Ground PvE aside from maybe that, even pre-S4, ground PvE moved 5 times as fast as ground PvP.

Ground PvE was more fun vs the computer than vs players. There will always be one shotting in PvP (barring they make a one-shot code as they did in City of Heroes) but that's just the way it is. If you don't like it or your team isn't good enough to stay together and prevent it (using the various detection methods available in the instance of the stealthed tac character) that's not a systemic problem. That's a player problem.

A good balanced team won't get one shotted and will see stealthed players coming. The problem is there's not many truly smart and good ground PvPers out there yet because until S4 ground PvP sucked and took way too long to complete even one round so no one bothered except for a few people.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
07-19-2011, 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
- The Pulse Wave/Shotgun weapons by themselves are not an issue, but a Stealth, fully buffed Tactical Officer with a Pulse Wave is an issue with one-shotting people from behind.
Its not even this really. There is a gap between when a Tac destealths and when a Tac can fire. This moment is a weakness that can (and against me has) been taken advantage of. It requires situational awarness, i.e. a player skill (not an in game skill, but an actual skill on the part of the player) and as such its a perceived issue. In the 1-2 seconds before I can fire after decloaking a person keeping aware can target, and hit me with a high density, or compression bolt, or other knock back weapon. This can knock me down, and give them a chance to take me out or retreat to a safe distance. So I gotta disagree its not an issue with the fully buffed tacs just a lul in people not yet having developed the skill to deal with stealth in the new combat system. Once time has passed, this should be looked into for now, it needs time to 'mature'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
- There is an issue with players refusing to respawn, keeping people in the PvP map. I forwarded this off to dstahl today to see what we can do about that (I did suggest we do a force respawn after a timer in PvP only, but we'll see what they decide.)
Yes, this does need to be addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
- Spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser are an issue. Spawn camping eminent.
And in spades. Did some friendly PvP a day ago with a fleetie to help them get used to the new weapons. Killed him at the three way intersection on the south side. He respawned in front of me, I cryo gunned him, he respawned again, i cryo gunned him. i wasn't even trying to Camp him, and we just kept laughing at the amount of times (6) he spawned in that one spot right after one another.

As for what you're missing, you didn't mention Neural Neutralizer. A.K.A. I can shoot you freely for 20 seconds. It needs to be looked into.
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