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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
07-20-2011, 05:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I agree on some points and they have been brought to the attention to other devs (The spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser, the refusing to respawn, even the complaint that personal shields feel 'too weak in pvp.') But like others have said, I think its still too early to tell in some areas that complaints have come in about as people have only had a week and a half to adapt to the ground combat overhaul. Both in PvE and PvP.

I did some playtesting on Holodeck last week and today with some folks. I got some good feedback both from my own personal point of view and from the PvPers I was with. Tacs that are going stealth and one-shotting with a Pulse Wave gun, mmm...I don't even think that's particularly an issue with the weapon itself. I tried getting point blank with a pulse wave gun multiple times, not as a tac to see if it was SPECIFIC to the weapon. Couldn't do it. That's more of a player knowledge/skill thing where the player goes, "I'm a Tactical Officer, If I max out all my DPS with buffs and good equipment, go stealth, use this weapon and go up behind someone and do flanking damage, I can one-shot them." So, not the weapon by itself is an issue.

I'm actually wanting to know exactly how we can make existing ground PvP better. So far here is what I've gotten, compiled and delivered off:

- Cryo Grenades+CRM-200=1-shot kill with the alternate fire of the weapon. The weapon by itself is fine, but the Cryo Grenade is an issue.

- Personal Shields feel too weak in PvP. PvPers HAVE to use Capacity and Regen bonuses on personal shields because without they would die even faster. (I was in discussions with CrypticGecko about this specific issue earlier today, and I will keep compiling feedback about what we can do to come to a happy middle since this would also affect ground PvE as well )

- The Pulse Wave/Shotgun weapons by themselves are not an issue, but a Stealth, fully buffed Tactical Officer with a Pulse Wave is an issue with one-shotting people from behind.

- There is an issue with players refusing to respawn, keeping people in the PvP map. I forwarded this off to dstahl today to see what we can do about that (I did suggest we do a force respawn after a timer in PvP only, but we'll see what they decide.)

- Spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser are an issue. Spawn camping eminent.

I think I've covered all of the bases for ground PvP issues, but if you can tell me in a constructive manner if I missed anything, let me know! I'm out to help out the ground PvP experience be even better than what pre-S4 offered with this new overhaul done.
I think that problem with stealthed tac is not the weapon or in the power them self but in player trait choice. Stealth was a long broken player mechanic in pre s4, you could see a player that was stealth cloaked with any toon, before they even got with in firing range. So many player disregarded traits telepathic or keen secens traits as useless. My baetazed sic officer can see many of the tacs before they even get close enough to really use the shot gun effectively, it the same with the caitian or the frangi or andorian they all have the same stealth detection ability of varying degree's. The other problem is situational awareness if your in shooter mode you can not see behind you as your view plain is less then 180 degrees over the front of the the player, many times you do not need a stealth kit to even walk up on some one using it as long as you are behind them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
07-20-2011, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felderburg View Post
People asked for faster PVE combat. The people that played Ground PvP regularly repeatedly stated that GPvP was fine. The benefits of the new combat are mostly that it got a lot more people playing GPvP, which is great because it was pretty much a ghost town before. I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just saying that as far as PvP is concerned, Ground was perfectly fine before S4, other than population issues - which were likely due to the fact that no one liked the PvE game enough to try it.
If I ask you for something, does that mean you give it without doing some serious questions and research?

The fact that Cryptic stated, they are doing this big ground change for the PvP side of the game showed intent. Dan himself stated that. Not PvE. Please do better research and do not begin the "they" "us" labelling, this helps no one. The idea had us all excited, now we are dealing with the fallout of that idea, and the redoing of the said idea, which was not a bad idea.

The fact remains, the global changes were a bit too much.
Too less hp/shields, too much DPS handed out. Smart folks figured out quickly a way to take advantage of it, and walla, current condudrum. If you wonder how they figured it out. Its simple,
  • go to any STF Borg Instance
  • Get one shotted by the Heavy Tac and Regular Tacs, once or twice
  • go open your combat log and look at the damage they are doing to you
  • then you can simple deduct the skills and weapons being used.
  • Get them for yourself.
  • Walla, your a one shot wonder.

A balance has to be found, changing both the DPS so much and the Shields/HP so much was a bit too much and has it unbalanced. QUestion is, what needs to change and by how much? we are talking just little tweaks here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
07-20-2011, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I agree on some points and they have been brought to the attention to other devs (The spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser, the refusing to respawn, even the complaint that personal shields feel 'too weak in pvp.') But like others have said, I think its still too early to tell in some areas that complaints have come in about as people have only had a week and a half to adapt to the ground combat overhaul. Both in PvE and PvP.

- There is an issue with players refusing to respawn, keeping people in the PvP map. I forwarded this off to dstahl today to see what we can do about that (I did suggest we do a force respawn after a timer in PvP only, but we'll see what they decide.)

- Spawn points on Assimilated Cruiser are an issue. Spawn camping eminent.
There is a thread where some of us have been brainstorming ways to mitigate spawn camping

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...ighlight=spawn

The problem with a forced respawn timer is that it will encourage more spawn camping unless some kind of respawn protection is in play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
07-20-2011, 07:30 AM
What about taking design inspiration from your competitors mythic entertainment has 2 pvp mmos, There pvp mmo have ex lent map design. With the endless trial you could sample some of there ter 1 content in warhammar online. They set up there re-spawn point in camps protected by npc''s to prevent spawn ganking on ether side, but the thing is its a separate area that has limited approach by both side a cliff or and embankment. A debuff is also added to prevent players from gaining exp or benefit from staying in the safety zones and eventually kicked if they don't leave to make room for people that just want to run the scenario, and are not there for the emblem grab.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
07-20-2011, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
- Cryo Grenades+CRM-200=1-shot kill with the alternate fire of the weapon. The weapon by itself is fine, but the Cryo Grenade is an issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltoram
- The Pulse Wave/Shotgun weapons by themselves are not an issue, but a Stealth, fully buffed Tactical Officer with a Pulse Wave is an issue with one-shotting people from behind.
I would like to toss out that in both instances, it's not the individual abilities or weapons that are a problem, it's the specific combination. Is the Cyro grenade a problem when used with a disruptor or anything OTHER than the 2nd shot of the CRM200? I don't believe it is, so you can't focus on simply nerfing the Cyro Grenade into uselessness.

Same goes for the issue with Tac Officers and Pulse Wave gun. Are Tacs one-shotting people with OTHER guns while buffed or is it JUST with the Pulse Wave? Again I'm pretty sure it's only a very specific combination of skills along with a single weapon that is the problem.

Honestly, given how hard the "nerfs" go, I'd rather see the Cyro grenade and Pulse Gun removed rather than a bunch of sweeping changes to tac buffs simply to eliminate a single overpowered combination. The less that has to change the better in my opinion.

And I'll bring this up again... perhaps it's time to revisit having separate PVP and PVE stats. They are two vastly different styles of play and both would be better served by having stats tuned for each environment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
07-20-2011, 08:35 AM
I still believe that being one-shotted in PvP by someone who managed to get close to you and flank you is not a bug.

Is'nt here that we start talking about player personal skill? If you and/or your team gets ambushed with their pants down and shot in the back, i firmly believe that it deserves a quick and painful death.

There are ways to deal with ambushers and close opponents in the game. Many ways actually.

I would be alot more annoyed if the one-shot death was coming from extreme range with no ways to counter it. But again, in my book, in any case Flank/Backstab should = Death. There are no excuse to allow the enemy in your back. Watch your 6 or have a teammate watch it for you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
07-20-2011, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukedom View Post
I wouldn't blame it all on the poor grenade either. Besides the Cryo Tribble and having the 'right' trait there are no ways to get resistence vs cold damage. It was ought to happen that people 'rediscovered' the good old freeze gun. Maybe a nice [cold] modifier for armor is in order?
The real kicker is though that there is a system deficiency in the way the game treats crowd control resists.
Usualy it goes: you get hit by a stun/root and use a hypo to break free again. Just to be hit with another CC immediatly after. you die. Especially bad if you happen to turn up inside the blast radius of a cryo grenade, I told you to DODGE
This is a good point - there are certain things that are basically unresistable. Knockback is another one. In City of..., as I recall, you gain KB protection after being knocked around. In STO, you don't, even though you get hold resistance, weapons malfunction resistance, etc. after those happen to you.

Speaking of dodging, I swear my double tapping isn't as effective as it used to be *shrug* could just be me though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
07-20-2011, 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felderburg View Post
I swear my double tapping isn't as effective as it used to be *shrug* could just be me though.
No I'm having the same problem, I have to tap the roll key like 50 times b4 it rolls, and then by that time its too late
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
07-20-2011, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felderburg View Post
Speaking of dodging, I swear my double tapping isn't as effective as it used to be *shrug* could just be me though.
Movement and interacting with the UI, in general, has gotten clunkier in S4. There are so many ways to set off an animation or whatever that drops you out of a sprint and/or starts the white bar recharge. Also, I think I've heard it mentioned that switching between shooter and RPG can mess up your rolling somehow.

Also, actions don't "queue" like they did pre-S4, making the game less fluid and much harder to develop a rhythm.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
07-20-2011, 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felderburg View Post
People asked for faster PVE combat. The people that played Ground PvP regularly repeatedly stated that GPvP was fine.
And the point of the PvP changes - is to get players like me, who hated ground PvP because of the system, and didn't play it; to give it a try under the new ruleset; and under the new ruleset I actually like Ground PvP now.

This isn't to say there aren't issues, or that some thingsdon't need tweaking as some things do; but Ground PvP was hardly 'fine' prior to the Ground 2.0 update.
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