Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I took some time yesterday to figure out the differences between skilled and unskilled abilities, whether innate or gained by equipping the various kits available.

First thing ahead: Skill benefits for the Transphasic Bomb and Nanite Health Monitor do not show up, if you watch the ability details ("P"). I had to guess about increase, but as all other Science healing abilities increase by about 50% it's most likely, that this also applies to Nanite Health Monitor.
Transphasic Bomb seems to be around 25%, what matches the bonus for chroniton mine barrier. Due to being linked to the same skill, it's most likely, that they share the same amount of skill bonus.

It's quite interesting, that there's a hell of difference of how much your skills affect the abilities: While there are of course a lot of stats, that aren't affected directly, the bonus benefits range from approx. 3,4% (stealth bonus and perception malus of the smoke grenade) up to 200% (Shield Generator's shield reg per sec). Most other values range from this applied min to 100%, while you find no other skill beside Shield Generator, which is granted an increase of more than 100%.

The main question is now:
Why should you ever skill specific abilities, if your benefits aren't worth it? Shouldn't it be the way, that you pick one or two kits for your personal use and try to skill that to high efficiency?

To give a more specific example: Transphasic Bomb and Chroniton Mine Barrier are unskilled already devastating in effect, if you're able to use it to the highest benefit possible. Why should you invest skill points for an pointless 25% damage increase? Watching this from the other side means, that almost every engineer might switch to this kit and starts blowing things up with an incredible amount of effciency.

I recognize, that some abilities a widely spread across the kits. These abilities, as well as the innate abilities of every captain, shouldn't get that lot of an increase if fully skilled.
You captain is depending on his innate abilities and granting them a bonus, similar to the other abilities wouldn't have a positive effect on their strength (when related to the balancing).

The grenades are a good example for not-innate abilities, who currently aren't worth any skill points: The grenade satchel kit got a great decrease in efficiency, as the grenades now share global cooldowns. These global cooldowns easily exceed the recharge time of a single grenade, thus decreasing efficiency even further (if you try using all grenades, the global cd of a single grenade is of course lower than the recharge time of any of the grenades). Back to topic: Why should you ever skill grenades, if the benefits range from ridiculous 3,4% to less than 25% (except for stun duration of the stun grenade, which hits 50%)?
The grenades are split up on different kits and even if one one kit, they block each other with the global cooldown. The skill grenades would be much more interesting, if you'd get 100% bonus to specific stats.
To apply such a bonus it's inevitable to decrease the base values of the grenades.

If applied correctly, these changes would leave unskilled grenades still valuable, while skilled grenades would be even more valuable and worth the skill points.

In general: Shouldn't all abilities gain from 75% to 100% bonus to their values, if skilled? This excepts innate and special abilities, which might range from 25% to 50%.


Someone could have thought about a relation of skill tier and bonus height, but this doesn't seem to be the case:
Tactical - Martial Arts is a T3 skill and benefits Motion Accelerator with double 100% bonuses and triple 53% bonuses while Sweeping Strikes and Lunge gain one bonus of less than 40%.

I could write pages and pages regarding this topic, including detailed suggestions on values and bonuses, but that's not my job. So let me state this whole topic in a simple sentence:


So, plz Cryptic: Make each skill worth its points and give specialization a much greater advantage than non-specialization.

Btw: Is it intended, that Strike Team just got its damage increased? And why should skilling tactical initiative not increase the diameter of the sphere, where this ability is applied?



All values, I spoke of, can be viewed in the following table for Excel:

http://theinfernalverjigorm.gmxhome....ed-skilled.xls



If you find misspellings or grammatical mistakes, feel free to pn me corrections, otherwise keep 'em for yourself :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-20-2011, 03:25 AM
It's quite interesting, that nobody got something to say bout this topic
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-21-2011, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
It's quite interesting, that nobody got something to say bout this topic
And yet it has nearly 100 views.

I agree entirely (and may I say good work taking this all into account yourself).

I too would like to see that we are appropriately rewarded for putting skillpoints into particular skills, and for people specced for a setup to get a noticeably different benefit from someone untrained.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-21-2011, 10:33 PM
Ok, views are not a guarantee, that those viewers agree with this, but most people would like to see getting proper bonuses for investing skill points into specific skills.

But why is then nobody taking part in this discussion?

I'm confused...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-22-2011, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Ok, views are not a guarantee, that those viewers agree with this, but most people would like to see getting proper bonuses for investing skill points into specific skills.

But why is then nobody taking part in this discussion?

I'm confused...
Math iz hard.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
07-23-2011, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Ok, views are not a guarantee, that those viewers agree with this, but most people would like to see getting proper bonuses for investing skill points into specific skills.

But why is then nobody taking part in this discussion?

I'm confused...
I had a quick read through your post a couple of days ago but forgot it was there.
The main problem I can see with applying a set buff to all skills based on skill point expenditure is the effect of that buff. As an example I'll use this;

Quote:
Tactical - Martial Arts is a T3 skill and benefits Motion Accelerator with double 100% bonuses and triple 53% bonuses while Sweeping Strikes and Lunge gain one bonus of less than 40%.
Motion Accelerator and Lunge are two very different skills. Giving someone a short duration speed buff is one thing but it's already possible to one shot an unprepared target with a lunge strike (fully buffed from behind is the usual tactic) so giving an even higher buff would make it far too powerful. Motion Accelerator also has a significant cooldown to offset its use whereas Lunge has a short cooldown and Sweeping Strike has no cooldown at all so even though the bonus from skill point expenditure is much lower the more frequent use means it's still worth the points if you like to melee.

Quote:
So, plz Cryptic: Make each skill worth its points and give specialization a much greater advantage than non-specialization.
Specialisation isn't exactly at a disadvantage right now anyway. If you skill fully into your selected kit you're likely to fill out many of the T1 and T2 skills meaning that any kit for your class you stand a chance of being 48% skilled into many of the skills on that kit so the points are never wasted if ground is your thing. It seems to me that the skills that gain the lowest bonus have higher base damage or heal effects anyway so they're granted a lower buff from skill point expenditure to balance them at higher tiers, as you mentioned CMB has a low buff from the skill points spent but it's already a powerful skill when unspecced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
07-23-2011, 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
...

Motion Accelerator and Lunge are two very different skills. Giving someone a short duration speed buff is one thing but it's already possible to one shot an unprepared target with a lunge strike (fully buffed from behind is the usual tactic) so giving an even higher buff would make it far too powerful. Motion Accelerator also has a significant cooldown to offset its use whereas Lunge has a short cooldown and Sweeping Strike has no cooldown at all so even though the bonus from skill point expenditure is much lower the more frequent use means it's still worth the points if you like to melee.


Specialisation isn't exactly at a disadvantage right now anyway. If you skill fully into your selected kit you're likely to fill out many of the T1 and T2 skills meaning that any kit for your class you stand a chance of being 48% skilled into many of the skills on that kit so the points are never wasted if ground is your thing. It seems to me that the skills that gain the lowest bonus have higher base damage or heal effects anyway so they're granted a lower buff from skill point expenditure to balance them at higher tiers, as you mentioned CMB has a low buff from the skill points spent but it's already a powerful skill when unspecced.
I never doubted the differences between the skills. But this can be easily compensated by altering the base values. Base damage of Lunge would be decreased and skill bonus would be increased to reach its former performance.

I'll definitely never skill science ground abilities due to their low efficiencies. I'll never get something worth the skill points. This is hard for healing skills: Due to the increase in pace and speed they're currently wortless, rather skill or unskilled. Though they're spread on various kits, they could need an higher end healing amount and an increased bonus to make the skills worth their points.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-24-2011, 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I never doubted the differences between the skills. But this can be easily compensated by altering the base values. Base damage of Lunge would be decreased and skill bonus would be increased to reach its former performance.

I'll definitely never skill science ground abilities due to their low efficiencies. I'll never get something worth the skill points. This is hard for healing skills: Due to the increase in pace and speed they're currently wortless, rather skill or unskilled. Though they're spread on various kits, they could need an higher end healing amount and an increased bonus to make the skills worth their points.

What would be the point in reducing the base value only to buff it back with skill point expenditure? I can see you want to force people to specialise but what about those that prefer to run with a basic points in T1 or T1 and T2 approach so they can play ground but still have a decent space spec? They'd end up being unable to play ground at higher difficulties or PvP for no real reason.

As for Science skills being inefficient then I'd have to disagree. The gain may not be as high as for other classes but combined with the resistances that are granted by those same skills you can be very tough to take down. Science is also more proactive than it used to be, the strongest heals are HoT that also grant resistances so if you're waiting until yours or your team mates health drops to start healing then you're not getting the most out of the heals; they work much better when used to mitigate some of the damage rather than as a reactive heal (similar to how Hazard Emitters works in Space). A Tac with NHM and Vascular Regenerator used on them is going to be dealing a lot of damage but also soaking a lot of damage up at the same time so I can't understand how you've come to the conclusion that Sci heals are weak or pointless.
I also don't see how the heals are spread over different kits; Medic and Borg Medical Analyser kits have all heals, or 3 heals and a single offensive skill. The more aggressive the kit the less heals it has, but by the time you get to a kit like Physicist you aren't going to be skilling into the same skills (at least at T3 and above) anyway so using any heals will just be soaking up even more skill points for no real gain.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
07-30-2011, 02:27 AM
More people are focussed on space combat rather than ground combat. Ground combat is something that happens now and again and when it does I deal with it. Space combat is where my Boffs are min/maxed to within an inch of their lives and I know every detail of the skills, bonuses and abilities.

This would explain why my Tac officer with his Grenade Kit finds ground combat a lot easier than other characters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
08-02-2011, 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Ok, views are not a guarantee, that those viewers agree with this, but most people would like to see getting proper bonuses for investing skill points into specific skills.

But why is then nobody taking part in this discussion?

I'm confused...
It's about Ground. The PvP math and design theory junkies are mostly space. Maybe this will improve should Ground PvP become indeed more popular.

---

But I agree that your observation is interesting and indicates a few issues with the underlying system. (But I think the Grenade global cooldown is a big issue that could serve its own thread!).

In general, the value of skilling for a power - Ground or Space - seems very different and the underlying system is often opaque, requiring lots of testing. Often enough, I feel that the entire game system lacks an underlying structure that could be used to reason about its flaws and advantages and the consequences of changes. Most of it is now is guesswork and experience. But even with that lack - I think it would be good if there was a consistency with the effect of skill values.

I miss a thoroughly designed system like D&D 4...
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