Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
07-18-2011, 06:56 PM
I think what you are trying to say is that

If i have aux at 125 and I cast hazard or TSS it should not be providing the same heal strength as it does at the time it is cast over that duration if my aux power drops.
Same goes with shield power and extend shields

Therefor you want full resists and heal strength over the duration of the heal the healing ship has to maintain the power at the setting it was initially cast at othewise the heal reduces in strength to the level that it would heal at given its aux & shield power setting.

Would make more sense rather than having a fixed drain per power

Its a good idea after all ships have to maintain high weapon power to do damage over time so why allow them to have high aux power for a second only when casting the heals when they should have to maintain it over time to have the awesome healing and not just have it at max level when casting.

I've put forward this idea before but as there is no hope of Cryptic balancing anything in space PVP I consider it a mute point
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
07-18-2011, 07:13 PM
I believe this has been brought up before and my concerns are the same. (From a Sci Captain point of view).

1. 3x TAC consoles can boost all energy weapons' damage and likely indirectly most of the Boff Skills. 3x Sci may or may not, take into account the deflector and it's not possible to max like you can w/TAC.

2. Sci skills don't offer passive boosts, many TAC skills do.

3. It takes less SP to min/max for weapons then Sci Skills.

4. There are passive benefits to high AUX power, there aren't for high weapons power.

5. The old change from associating turnrate w/AUX power level to engine power level means Sci Captains must invest into more if not all of the 4 power levels at some point to be effective. TAC can ignore AUX altogether. This includes SP investment into Engineer skills which boost power levels.

6. Other than beam overload, I can't think of 1 TAC skills which directly reduces weapon power setting. It's the rate of fire changes of some skills which drain the weapon power more (an indirect reduction) and is still a net positive.

7. Everyone uses weapons and therefore to one degree or another feels the effects of the power drain. Not everyone uses Sci skills which even require AUX.

In short, it's not apples to apples to compare power level utilizations of items (weapons) and skills. If there's an issues w/resistances&heals, then imo it's best to address them directly and not Rube Golberg things up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
07-18-2011, 07:31 PM
While this may be a valid concern based on a premade team where everyone carries heals I think this would have too drastic an impact on PUG healers, I fly a sci/nebula healer and around 5% of the time I queue, 3/5 ships on my team are primary healers and I can see how healing could be seen as deserved of the proposed changes. However 95% of the time when I'm the only primary healer and *maybe* one or two other ships carry a few heals, the proposed changes would destroy me seeing as I already go up pretty quickly when I'ved used everything but my cycling EptS I on others and the focus changes to me...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
07-18-2011, 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirourm

We also know how stacking of many Science and Engineering abilities, make it so an ability used by a single ship is able to be overcome, but when used by multiple ships become almost overpowered (4 extends, 8 ETs, 4 TSSs, 4 HEs on one team for example)
I don't see how your solution even deals with this issue: There is a team stacking abilities here. It's not a single player doing it, a team. But your solution primarily affects a single player. It doesn't do anything to a team of people that throw around their heals. A good team can certainly manage to do that, and avoid having a single player use all his heals to save someone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
07-19-2011, 12:20 AM
Honestly, I can see the reasons to want something like this..

To be frank, this game has been kind of short sighted when it comes to the way abilities stack up. There doesn't seem to even remotely be any kind of deminishing returns on stacking buffs from other sources, especially when it comes to shields. Not to mention I don't think they even considered how powerful the abilities in the game are in the PVP side of things when everything I believe is designed around the PVE side of the game in mind first. Which maybe why we have to constantly have balances, buffs, and nerfs since nothing has been properly balanced from day 1.

Now do I agree with the original suggestion that is the same as the one Minimax provided a month or two ago? Some what. As I can see how it would make sense that powers should draw off the ships systems in order to trigger. For those addicted to Cannon, why just look at how often it's complained about power settings, and the power not being adaquate for different things. Especially in Voyager, where they actually had a limited supply.

So in the end, I think it would make sense to have those things. Provided they were done properly.

For example, I always thought with Extend shields, YOUR shields should effectively be taking the damage for the target your extending. Which means your shields should get drained when an escort begins to heavily pound on who you are trying to protect. (Honestly I also thought it should look like the Science Officer's AOE resistance buff, but that's me personally as you'd be providing a shield buff to your allies)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
07-19-2011, 12:22 AM
You're discussing team tactics with heal stacks, but there are groups out there who do the same for shared dps buffs, as well as disabling all the enemy cruisers and their heals for several seconds. (charged particle burst included)

then throw in SS into that mix whilst the enemy are throwing their heals around and you'll find they just healed YOUR team.

Nerf that as well and you have a point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
07-19-2011, 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Thats why I set some of the power cost high, instant powers would drain like BOL.. It takes a moment for the power to regenerate.. If you continue using powers based on the same system, drain would be slower.

Systems with a duration, would have a drain for the entire duration, and would regenerate once expiring
This would make sense.


Quote:
Well.. I was thinking more of the powers that are based on specific systems.. Eng/Sci/Tac Teams for example doesnt require "power"
As long as equal tac BO powers cost energy too it can be balanced somehow. But if only some eng/sci powers cost additional energy sci/cruisers will have a severe disadvantage. And here I see the actual balance problem. If the majority of the eng/sci powers draw energy but not additional tac powers escorts would basically work like now while the others have an additional drain to compensate beside the usual weapon drain. So you not only have to find a balance concerning the values of the drain but also concerning the amount of different powers which actually have one.



Quote:
Maybe, maybe not.. The main idea was to add some sort of "cost" for using powers.. Sure.. You can have 5 ships spamming abilities, but they would have lower power for other abilities..

Balancing the various abilities would be a simpler matter..

Example:

Having 3 ships spamming Extend would most likely not be as popular as it is now if all the using ships had -50 shieldpower (thus leaving them more vulnerable).
True but then you also have to implement a way you can turn your powers off. To stay with your example if I use ES and have -50 shieldpower and then the enemy is targeting me I have to be able to turn ES off again. Maybe it has some kind of reduced CD because you didn't use it the whole time but that's a different point again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
07-19-2011, 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kemotherapy
Um...

Healing doesn't miss because, last I checked, people aren't actively trying to avoid being healed...

Pilots are trying to evade damage, it makes sense for there to be a miss chance there. Pilots are not trying to evade heals. This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

Yes but are you saying you r heal targeting sensors are better than your weapons targeting sensors. THe passive defense makes you hard to hit it should also make you hard to target for heals. So again if you have an escort EM-ing around the battle its ok for 50% of the shots at him to miss but 100% of your heals. Chance to miss is a chance to miss. The only heals that should be 100% accurate are self heals.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
07-19-2011, 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
This would make sense.




As long as equal tac BO powers cost energy too it can be balanced somehow. But if only some eng/sci powers cost additional energy sci/cruisers will have a severe disadvantage. And here I see the actual balance problem. If the majority of the eng/sci powers draw energy but not additional tac powers escorts would basically work like now while the others have an additional drain to compensate beside the usual weapon drain. So you not only have to find a balance concerning the values of the drain but also concerning the amount of different powers which actually have one.





True but then you also have to implement a way you can turn your powers off. To stay with your example if I use ES and have -50 shieldpower and then the enemy is targeting me I have to be able to turn ES off again. Maybe it has some kind of reduced CD because you didn't use it the whole time but that's a different point again.

Agreed.. Ive just always found it silly that I have to work and plan to maintain my weaponspower, yet shield/engine and aux power is static at whatever settings I put them at (barring outside influences - Tykens, BTSX etc.).

If I shoot my weapons my weapon power drop by up to 70 points
If I shoot a BOL my weapons power drop by 50
If I use FAW on a 8beam cruiser, my weaponpower drop by ~80-90 points

If I activate Eject Warp Plasma, my enginepower remains at ~60
If I use Extend shields, my shieldpower remain at 125 (for my Borgbased Cruiser)
If I use Hazard Emitters, my Aux remain the same
If I use Transfer Shield Strenght (this should possibly drain both shield and aux, but at a lesser degree) my shield and aux powers are static.

Now there are two "abilities" that affect systems allready.. Ramming Speed and Full Impulse.. For all the other abilities, it doesnt really matter what and how much I use it.. I can effecively spam 130k worth of hullheals in 60 seconds on a StarCruiser.. More on a Vo'Quv Carrier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
07-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Yes but are you saying you r heal targeting sensors are better than your weapons targeting sensors. THe passive defense makes you hard to hit it should also make you hard to target for heals. So again if you have an escort EM-ing around the battle its ok for 50% of the shots at him to miss but 100% of your heals. Chance to miss is a chance to miss. The only heals that should be 100% accurate are self heals.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is little reason to include a "heal-miss mechanic" because it is nonsensical. Like I said before, it makes sense that weapons have a chance to miss because pilots tend to try to avoid incoming damage in battle. This doesn't apply to heals--they aren't trying to avoid heals, so there's really no reason they should 'miss' or have a chance to miss. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to recognize.
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