Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 441
07-25-2011, 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Richardson View Post
You spaced the necks away from the engineering hull instead of keeping them flush, that's why it's got such wonky proportions. Squish 'em in closer, and don't leave any kind of gap at all, and you'll do wonders for the design. The side-on view still leaves me utterly bleagh, though. Upper surface is still extremely promising, but let down by the issues with the forward third of the engineering hull.
^^^^^^^

He took the words right out of my mouth!!! Those necks make me think Oberth, and thinking Oberth is a very shortlived thought to have (ie U.S.S. Grissom). Please dont Grissofy the new Enterprise!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 442
07-25-2011, 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koppenflak
I'd be happy to take up the offer of some counterpoints to the perceived problems, being something of a CG designer myself... But it would help if I understood your thoughts on some of the previous canon Enterprises in this regard. There is an element of 'precedent' to any design besides the E-Nil that plays a major part in this kind of debate.

Take the Galaxy class, for example. Aside from the F, I cannot think of another Enterprise that has such a fierce division between its fans and critics. I personally find it to look monstrously unbalanced across both the vertical and length axis... But nonetheless, she is embraced as one of the seminal "Enterprise" designs, regardless of whether people love it or hate it.
My big problem with the galaxy is that it looks like it has lovehandles, so to speak. Wide and floppy, and not enough hard angle points. (The -A, and -E, regarded as far as I know as two of the best big E's have a nice balance between hard geometry and soft) The Engineering hull looks partially melted in the sun, and was allowed to spread on the sidewalk. But the overall hull shape had great potential, as Cap'n Logan showed with the Monarch (which has it's own flaws), and once tightened up, and given some harder edges, it cleaned up nicely. Even the forward-swept pylons work. They were just too boxed in for the galaxy (but they work on the Nebula for some reason, I'm still trying to pin my finger down on it). Her neck is actually the best part, and would only need a slight thickening at the base to make perfect (and symmetric shuttlebays).

As for the -A, my own personal favorite, and one of a great many people. It's at that balance point of 'some softness, and rounded edges', with enough hard angles to give her bite, and a formality to her format. It gives the ship something you can grab onto, without making the hardness overwhelming.
Which illustrates a big thing in starfleet designs. All the 'modern' designs that are really loved strike a balance between having a hardness, a geometric industrial-ish feel, and a soft rounded organic look. Each starfleet ship, even the puggy Defiant, is a crafted work of art, each brushstroke meant to define something, arc the ship in a way that describes power and speed.

Not to say that the -A doesn't have it's issues. The nacelle pylons need a thickening, and if I could, I'd slap the MEGA!prise's neck in to replace her own, with a little bit of modification, and I'd be happy as a clam. Happier, since clams can't be happy.


I think that's why I'm pushing for the more industrial looking fixes to the issue with the outer proportions of the neck/engineering hull joint, to give it a hardpoint to really grab onto the ship, and to just feel the energy that could potentially run through her. It'd be nice to have it as a hard, sharp point to cut through space with, and would really increase her sleek look, and it'd set her looks further apart from the Sovvy. Might not entirely give her a separate character of her own, but it'd be a nice start.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 443
07-25-2011, 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
The most telling thing, I think, is that the minority of posters who have issues with the current design elaborate and justify their positions. On the other hand, the majority of posters who approve of the design have nothing better to spew than common fallacies and vitriol.

Hmmm. Perhaps. Or perhaps the majority who approve of the design are happy with it as it is and don't see the need to go into elaborate, excruciating detail as to why they like each particular thing, whereas the vocal minority that dislike it feel entitled to complain about each and every way in which it does not precisely satisfy their own personal peccadilloes, while pretending that theirs is the only possible logical view. Funnily enough, this behavior does tend to inspire vitriol in even the most reasoned and thoughtful of individuals.

I'd buy the "well reasoned arguments based on universal truths of design" thing more if any of the vocal detractors had actually brought up any. All I've seen so far is a bunch of "I don't like this thing, and until they have personally pleased ME, I SAY IT DOES NOT WORK. SO NYEAAAH!" This fails constructive criticism 101. If these were actual architects speaking, they could explain their thoughts in terms of functional of stylistic elements, and exactly how they are or are not working together. Saying "this should be different because it does not work" is not an argument, as you have not explained why.

Back to the design itself, I'm a much bigger fan of it in these orthographic views than I was before. Even the nacelles, which I was previously critical of, seem to have a much nicer look in profile. I think perspective was doing some not-nice things to them, making them appear sharper and more angular than they actually are. The shape of the saucer also pleasantly surprised me. I've never been a huge fan of the triangular saucers of the Star Cruisers, but this one captures what I think is just about the ideal rounded triangle shape. for an added bonus, in the ventral view, the negative space inside the dual necks (surrounding the light source) forms a symmetrical version of the Trek symbol (nice touch!)

My favorite area, however,has always been the front of the engineering hull. The rotund little "eyeball" as it has been described has a nice, pleasingly round shape, with enough vertical asymmetry to give it an organic feel, as well as a bit of forward moving dynamism (which also helps soften the transition from the underside of the saucer in a way that nicely parallels the back of the necks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 444
07-25-2011, 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiant797 View Post
**note, I just saw some of the posts after I started typing this. Let me sneak in: Paramount probably doesn't care about the prime universe, but I'll bet CBS does, as that's where all its licences lie (including STO)
Perhaps I should elaborate. It's entirely possible that CBS does not intend to ever revisit the prime universe by producing a new TV series. The fact that a cinematic reboot exists and they are letting Cryptic design the Ent-F (based off of a fan submission no less) indicates that this may very well be the case. If you can't see that strong possibility you are living in a world of unicorns and gum drops. Regardless, CBS is a business. If they sense there is money to be made off of Star Trek, they will try to make money off of Star Trek. Simply allowing the existence of licensed works does not mean that Star Trek is a top priority at CBS though -- it's a cheap and easy way to make a buck. There may little interest in the prime universe outside of wringing out as much profit as possible from the remaining licencees.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 445
07-25-2011, 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Richardson View Post
My big problem with the galaxy is that it looks like it has lovehandles, so to speak. Wide and floppy, and not enough hard angle points. (The -A, and -E, regarded as far as I know as two of the best big E's have a nice balance between hard geometry and soft) The Engineering hull looks partially melted in the sun, and was allowed to spread on the sidewalk. But the overall hull shape had great potential, as Cap'n Logan showed with the Monarch (which has it's own flaws), and once tightened up, and given some harder edges, it cleaned up nicely. Even the forward-swept pylons work. They were just too boxed in for the galaxy (but they work on the Nebula for some reason, I'm still trying to pin my finger down on it). Her neck is actually the best part, and would only need a slight thickening at the base to make perfect (and symmetric shuttlebays).

As for the -A, my own personal favorite, and one of a great many people. It's at that balance point of 'some softness, and rounded edges', with enough hard angles to give her bite, and a formality to her format. It gives the ship something you can grab onto, without making the hardness overwhelming.
Which illustrates a big thing in starfleet designs. All the 'modern' designs that are really loved strike a balance between having a hardness, a geometric industrial-ish feel, and a soft rounded organic look. Each starfleet ship, even the puggy Defiant, is a crafted work of art, each brushstroke meant to define something, arc the ship in a way that describes power and speed.

Not to say that the -A doesn't have it's issues. The nacelle pylons need a thickening, and if I could, I'd slap the MEGA!prise's neck in to replace her own, with a little bit of modification, and I'd be happy as a clam. Happier, since clams can't be happy.


I think that's why I'm pushing for the more industrial looking fixes to the issue with the outer proportions of the neck/engineering hull joint, to give it a hardpoint to really grab onto the ship, and to just feel the energy that could potentially run through her. It'd be nice to have it as a hard, sharp point to cut through space with, and would really increase her sleek look, and it'd set her looks further apart from the Sovvy. Might not entirely give her a separate character of her own, but it'd be a nice start.
I'll agree with you on the A being the best of the lot, but I just don't care for the E at all. The saucer is just an oval stretched too far. It looks passable in perspective views, but in orthographic I find it almost hideous. The overall proportions and flow of the ship are nice, but I can't say I like any particular part in the slightest. Honestly I think the D is a much better ship than the E.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 446
07-25-2011, 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Perhaps I should elaborate. It's entirely possible that CBS does not intend to ever revisit the prime universe by producing a new TV series. The fact that a cinematic reboot exists and they are letting Cryptic design the Ent-F (based off of a fan submission no less) indicates that this may very well be the case. If you can't see that strong possibility you are living in a world of unicorns and gum drops. Regardless, CBS is a business. If they sense there is money to be made off of Star Trek, they will try to make money off of Star Trek. Simply allowing the existence of licensed works does not mean that Star Trek is a top priority at CBS though -- it's a cheap and easy way to make a buck. There may little interest in the prime universe outside of wringing out as much profit as possible from the remaining licencees.
Another possibility that could be drawn from CBS not letting Cryptic decide the fate of the E is that CBS already knows what they want to do with it and they just haven't gotten around to it yet.

For all we know this contest could have stirred up the interest at CBS to do something with the E. That would explain why originally Cryptic was going to get to end the E and now CBS wont let them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 447
07-25-2011, 09:40 PM
can we just have some more screenshots and a video of the enterprise F please
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 448
07-25-2011, 09:45 PM
I still want to see that super sized compilation.

I'm starting to suspect that CapnLogan put up that picture link for us before leaving work. We probably won't have a fixed link until later tomorrow.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 449
07-25-2011, 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnLogan
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-A-T-H-F-I-N-D-E-R
I believe it has been mentioned that CBS does not want to close the door on what happens to the "E".
That is likely true... also CBS will not give us the rights to write a story for it.
Does that mean the Featured Series that the F appears in will involve time travel? Or is the E "gone" with no explanation of how or when?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 450
07-25-2011, 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Richardson View Post
I know it's an opinion. I've stated it's opinion. And yes, I am blunter than a Borg Cube, because the soft and buttery approach works about like trying to use a stick of butter to turn a lug nut.

But it's still an issue. And I've already said my answers are not necessarily the best answers, or the only answers. But they're still answers to an issue that must be asked.

As for your post? Doesn't bug me in the least. I live in a forceful, decisive area, then served in the military which only face-hardened that. I'm opinionated, passionate, and relentless if I feel there is an issue that needs to be addressed, and screaming "you're wrong" in my face, without actually giving a counterposition is the fastest way to pick a fight with me, for good or ill.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but opinion is different from personal attack. I understand that you don't like the look of the Ent-F. There are things that even those who like it have issue with. However, you take it to a level that is just plain rude. When you told Logan that he has no artistic talent and that everything should be ran through a ship "expert" you crossed the line from stating opinion to bashing on someone and their hard work.

As another poster stated above, it is far easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar. More people would take you seriously if you took a more reasoned approach than just stating that you hate the ship and it should be changed to fit your expectation of what an Enterprise should look like.
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