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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Hi,

I am a little bit confused about the info text of any speac-antiproton-weapon which says, that Antiprotons have a chance to penetrate schields...

Is that really so?

Lg,
tomixxx
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-23-2011, 04:59 PM
It used to be way back when, but that was changed.

Antiprotons now have an innate CrtD bonus as their proc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-23-2011, 05:00 PM
The proc is for additional criticals. Whether that means penetrating shields or not i don't know. Cause I've seen critical hits as low as 5 but as big as 102,000.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-23-2011, 06:19 PM
Yeah, the AP shield-bypass was removed shortly after they were introduced to the game when it was realized how overpowered they were in PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-23-2011, 06:48 PM
Quite honestly I don't think AP ever by passed shields after beta. Some people believed they did due to Poor game documentation... in fact I think a year after launch the tool tips still mentioned shield by pass. lol

The only advantage they have is one extra CritD..... personally I find them pointless. You are stuck with the emblem ones which don't have ideal mods... and no proc at all, considering how easy it is to perma proc a target in this game it seems silly to abandon a proc for a 9k crit instead of a 7.5k crit. When you can use weapons like the Polaron CritHx2 Dmg... to literally hit 30% more crits. I'll take 10 crits at 7.5k or 7500 dmg over 7 crits at 9k for 6300k...... and you still get to land some procs as a nice little cherry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
07-23-2011, 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Quite honestly I don't think AP ever by passed shields after beta. Some people believed they did due to Poor game documentation... in fact I think a year after launch the tool tips still mentioned shield by pass. lol

The only advantage they have is one extra CritD..... personally I find them pointless. You are stuck with the emblem ones which don't have ideal mods... and no proc at all, considering how easy it is to perma proc a target in this game it seems silly to abandon a proc for a 9k crit instead of a 7.5k crit. When you can use weapons like the Polaron CritHx2 Dmg... to literally hit 30% more crits. I'll take 10 crits at 7.5k or 7500 dmg over 7 crits at 9k for 6300k...... and you still get to land some procs as a nice little cherry.
I totally agree, the +20 severity is pointless and it doesnt make Anti proton a single bit better then lets say phasers, (Which are even better imho.)

Another thing you should consider with AP is that I never see any AP weapons you can buy with all but the same crap modifiers, which is in my oppinion much more important then the proc of a weapon. (Its mostly emblem quality (I think the Mark of Exploration Mk X ones are even better )

I think Ill keep myself with my Purple Weaps and Accuracy :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
07-23-2011, 08:13 PM
After realizing what accuracy does and how the accuracy vs defense thing works out (thanks BigRedJedi/Goomba), I have gone full circle all the way back to Antiprotons, because theyre simply the best ones.

The CrtH bonus isnt as much of an improvement as I thought it was. Previously I was running CrtH x3 phaser heavy cannons. They were good, dont get me wrong. But your Crt Chance is actually a lot higher than what it says in your attack menu. Qaw said it goes from 7% to 10% and is a 30% chance, i dont think thats right. I think its more like a 17% to 20% (not sure of actual numbers, as it depends on your acc and their defense) due to accuracy, which is only a 15% increase. This essentially halves the original perceived value of the CrtH's.

I levelled up a whole new joined trill that copied my Phaser Bird, except I put antiprotons mk xi Acc CrtD Dmg on. It does way better (ask a certain excel that posts on here that I hit for 16k with a single cannon shot). These cannons are the best cannons in the game imo - it offers versatility with the accuracy trait, and has tremendous critical hit damage on with APA. I could go CrtD x2 Dmg which is 70% Crit Sev instead of 55% on the ones above (you get 5% CrtD for every 10% accuracy + 50 CrtD), but i lose the 1.25% CrtH and theyre not as good when the target is moving.

My ideal cannon would be antiproton Mk Xi Acc CrtD x2, but damage is ok as it still buffs the hits a bit.

Anyways, take it as you will.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-23-2011, 10:35 PM
Think of the weapons, in comparison, like this:

Base Crit Chance: 2%

Crit Chance with Weapon Types:
  • Polaron [CrtH]x2[Dmg] DHC's: 6%
  • AP [CrtH][Dmg]x2 DHC's: 4%
  • AP [Acc][CrtD][Dmg] DHC's: 2%

Base Crit Severity: 50%

Crit Severity with Weapon Types:
  • Polaron: 60% (10% from DHC's)
  • AP [CrtH]: 80%
  • AP [Acc][CrtD]: 100%+ (Accuracy overflow can and, often, does contribute additional CrtD)

For the sake of argument, let's say that base, modified (after skills) damage on the DHC's is: 2000 (just to make math a little easier). We can call the AP [CrtH][Dmg]x2: 2050 (it is approximately in this range, for the after skills final value of each [Dmg] modifier)

Now, let's fire 100 shots and extrapolate average results (assuming non-floating damage values and, initially, disregarding Acc vs. Defense modifications):

Polaron:
  • Base Damage per Hit: 2000
  • Criticals: 6
  • Extra damage dealt per critical: 1200
  • Total damage dealt, including critical damage: 207,200

AP [CrtH][Dmg]x2:
  • Base Damage per Hit: 2050
  • Criticals: 4
  • Extra Damage dealt per critical: 1640
  • Total Damage dealt, including critical damage: 211,560

AP [Acc][CrtD][Dmg]:
  • Base Damage per Hit: 2000
  • Criticals: 2
  • Extra Damage dealt per critical: 2000
  • Total Damage dealt, including critical damage: 204,000

Again, irrespective of Acc vs. Defense, on paper, the AP [CrtH][Dmg]x2's actually look like the superior weapon here, however, things get a little more interesting once you factor in Captain abilities (particularly Attack Pattern Alpha) and the importance of Accuracy.

Attack Pattern Alpha adds (fully skilled, without the minor additions of the AEGIS engine), for the purposes of this comparison:
  • Base Damage: +50% (or is it 60?... I knew I should have written it down )... We will even ignore this, for the moment (and because I'm not at home where I can actually pull the modified damage chart out, LOL)
  • Critical Chance: +4%
  • Critical Severity: +40%

Thus, modifying the final damage dealt to account for APA (even discounting the inherent base damage boost):

Polaron Total Damage Dealt: 220,000

AP [CrtH]: 224,680

AP [Acc][CrtD]: 216,800

Again, on paper, things still look like those AP [CrtH][Dmg]x2's are the way to go... But let's toss Accuracy into the mix, just for fun...

To avoid the migraine-inducing formulae and other fun things, we'll just narrow down Accuracy vs. Defense in the current meta-game to come down to a final, To-Hit chance of 40-60%... We'll simplify it even further, and just call it an average To-Hit Chance (for an active, moving target) of 50%. Again, using an averaged value, each [Acc] modifier adds from 5-10% to your To-Hit Chance (the more Defense your target has, the more valuable each modifier becomes), so we will average that again and simply call it a 7% addition.

Factoring the value of Accuracy in (again, 100 shots, assuming 50% To-Hit Chance for non-Acc weapons, and 57% To-Hit Chance for [Acc]):

Polaron Total Damage Dealt: 103,600
Polaron with APA: 110, 000

AP [CrtH] Total Damage Dealt: 107,420
AP [CrtH] with APA: 112,340

AP [Acc][CrtD] Total Damage Dealt: 116,280
AP [Acc][CrtD] with APA: 123, 576

Now there is some interesting comparisons... However, this does not, necessarily, mean that in all instances, will the AP [Acc][CrtD][Dmg] DHC's be superior; so, here are some observations based on the above:
  • The larger the sample size (i.e. number of shots fired) the more potential value that [CrtH] will have.
  • A caveat to the above point, is that all the [CrtH] in the world is irrelevant, if you do not Hit your target.
  • Depending upon your build, and the ease with which you can lower a target's Defense, the more valuable certain modifiers become.

So, what does this mean for choosing a weapon? What factors do I need to consider when comparing [X] modifiers and procs?
  • [Acc] is a valuable modifier on ALL weapon types, though there are some instances where weapons do not, necessarily, need to have the modifier.
  • Aside from [Acc], the value of other modifiers is based on firing rate... Weapons that fire more often (specifically: Cannons > Beams > Torps, in terms of firing rate) derive greater value from [CrtH], while weapons that fire less frequently will usually value [CrtD] more. (More shots equates to more opportunities to score criticals, while fewer shots equates to the need to derive maximum value from any criticals scored.)
  • Ability choices can influence weapon choices, for example, if you run Tractor Beams or Target: Engines, or some other ability that reduces your opponent's Speed (and, thereby, substantially lowers their Defense), [Acc] is usually less valuable than [CrtD], as you will greatly increase the likelihood of scoring criticals, while your target is immobilized.
  • In terms of procs, no weapon even begins to approach Antiprotons in terms of influence, as it will, by far, be utilized the most often. Weapons with traditional procs have a 2.5% chance of proc, per attack (with the super-rare exception of the Tetryon Weapons from the New Link mission), and nothing changes that. AP weapons increase the usage of their 'special effect' based on your current Critical Chance, which can be increased through skills and certain powers (or [CrtH] traits on weapons).
  • [CrtD] is the most useful proc for torpedoes.
  • [Acc][CrtD][CrtH] is, probably, the most useful attribute combination for non-Torpedo weapons, however, it is a rarely-seen combination in Mk XI (only appearing on dropped gear, not available on Emblem weaponry or craftable).
  • [Dmg] is a largely irrelevant modifier (in space), worthwhile now, only because it actually makes getting a purple weapon with [Dmg] more valuable than simply sticking with the typically less-expensive blue weapons with the same, other two modifiers.

That's hardly a comprehensive list, but it should give you some things to think about.

Hope that it helps,
-Big Red Goomba



Glad that the Acc vs. Defense information was helpful, Beagles, and thank you for the feedback here, and for running the OPvP tournaments! One of these days, I'll be able to make it out to one! (Silly work schedule... *sigh*)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
07-23-2011, 10:42 PM
10.5k crits on my vorchas DHCs

It's a beautiful thing when all 3 crit like that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
07-23-2011, 11:03 PM
AP are most useful on tacticals (APA), and escorts (easier to spec into).

On my Craptor I run AP DHCs in front, along with disruptor turrets in the back. I get the extra CritD on the DHCs where I need them, while the turrets will usually give the hull resistance proc which further helps the DHCs as well as my quantums. Very expensive to spec into two energy types, but the fact my weapons fire looks like Christmas makes it all worthwhile :p
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