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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Ok so if you saw the thread in the main forum then there is at least a certain level of interest in a player run league / ladder (with and without prizes based on opinions). So we got to brainstorming ideas for a ruleset, now keep in mind these are in no way set in stone and can be altered, appended, etc at any time to what the pvp community deems fair.


Ladder System

There would be an on going ladder for the entire duration of PvP. Obviously split down into sub catagories, ground pvp and space pvp. As teams win they can climb up and down the ladder based on winning or losing.

Moving up the ladder: Let's say there are 10 teams for examples sake and your team is ranked 10th currently. You may challenge only up to two teams higher than you. So you could challenge team ranked 9 and 8. If you win you move up the ladder to their position and they move to yours. This helps movement up the ladder and prohibits both large downward swings down the ladder and a team in last place to challenge the top spot and win which could be attributed to luck, a fluke, etc. You would need to earn your way up the ladder. The top ranked team obviously cannot challenge anyone higher than them, but they do need to keep up their rank, sort of a king-of-the-hill style. And to discourage teams constantly challenging upward over and over, there would be a lock out time after challenges (length TBD)
  • You may only challenge upwards on the ladder only two ranks above you
  • You cannot challenge downward
  • You may not challenge another team after completing a match for X days (TBD

Scheduling of Matches; Assuming things get off the ground, if a team challenges another team to a match, they, both teams, would work with us to schedule a date and a time that can be met by both teams. Keep in mind that STO has people all over the world playing so it's quite easy your opponents can be in a vastly different timezone. In terms of missing a match or being late, we can determine a time of scheduling or how to issue a forfeit.
  • Matches should be completed after X days of challenge issue
  • Being late for a match for X amount of time equals a forfeit
  • Timezones will have to be factored into challenges

Team Size and Fleet(s); You do not need to be in a Fleet to participate. As long as you can get a group of regular folks to play, that is fine. Now keep in mind the word "regular". You will need to register your teams roster with us. Alternates are permitted, it would require @handles to verify who is whom. We say this because this will eliminate any ringers from teams. Fleets are more than welcome to participate, same rules apply. Team size is also up for debate, though we're leaning towards 7vs7 since 10vs10 may mean less teams able to field 10 people on a regular basis and 8 or 9 is still in that neighborhood. While 7 may seem low we figure it's a number that can be more easily achieved.
  • Team Size will be 7 players, with up to 3 alternates for a total of 10.
  • Rosters will need to be registered with the ladder, to prevent ringers and imposters
  • Fleet Not Required
  • Can compete in both ground and space ladder

Maps and Scenarios - This will just be for maps made for pvp currently. This will not include the Open PvP zone(s) once launched on Holodeck, nor Kerrat.
  • Ghost Ship
  • Assimilated Cruiser
  • Deserted Facility
  • Cracked Planet
  • etc
  • Kill Counts TBD for match length

Match Structure - Each challenge would be a best of three. For example if two teams are scheduled for a match, and it's a ground match of Ghost Ship, three rounds of Ghost Ship would be played, to insure a "best 2 out of 3" format. There is no time limit for this example because pretty much most maps are "arena" aka kill the other team where kill count determines the winner. Whoever hits X first, wins. So in our example here whoever wins two out of three rounds of Ghost Ship would be the winner of that match. Since you can't really tie, this will easily declare a winner after as early as the first two rounds of a match. Maps will be picked by an RNG for each match to insure impartiality of judges / organizers.
  • 3 rounds per match. Best 2 out of 3.
  • No preset time limit.

Powers, Abilities, etc - since we all know there are a rotating door of things in STO that are over powered or "op". When PvP was being grown after release, things like SNB and VM were very broken, until of course they got nerfed. Since it will take time for things to get fixed, we will create a ruleset that is ever changing and adapting to changes in powers, kits, items, ships etc. If something is proven to be op / broken, it will be disallowed on the ladder for competitive play until it is balanced by Cryptic.

Referees, Judges and Officials - The good thing about not using a full queue for matches is it leaves it open so if need be a Referee can come in. What can they do? Well nothing really it's not like they have GM powers if teams request a referee and one can be produced as best as possible for the scheduled match, a referee will be there to observe the match as a non-combatant with no gear on and only flying a Shuttle (dont kill the refs lol). Judges will be pretty much the same as Referees but if there is a dispute after a match has taken place, a Judge or Official can step in, which will lead to one of our most important things next

Recording Matches - Thanks to the handy dandy Demo Record feature, every player in each match will be required to demo record a match. Don't worry it's not like FRAPs, it will not destroy your framerate. This will create multiple visual records of pvp matches, especially if a Judge or Official needs to view the demo and make a decision.
  • All 14 players per match will be required to demo record the match
  • Each match demo will only need to be stored for up to 2 weeks after a match takes place
  • Demos are not required to be sent in automatically but if an official or judge requests one from a player, it needs to be produced

Prizes and Winnings - the ladder will regularly have "seasons". While the ladder is constantly going, to generate interest in one or more teams being "top dog" ranked high, every X weeks we will can say something along the lines of "Whoever is in Rank 1 for the following Month wins X". Where X is C-Store Points or other STO related goodies.



---------




So it's a very rough outline that will need a lot of polish to make shine and of course player dedication. Feedback welcome, positive or negative we're used to negative
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-26-2011, 09:50 PM
Pengs, Scramble, and FAW need to be on the blacklist.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-26-2011, 11:11 PM
Sounds fairly solid, but things I disagree with- 7 man teams, does this mean all matches will be 7 men per side? I've seen some teams have a hard enough time getting 5 people together regularly.

Will mixed teams be allowed?

Why demo record mode? Not everyone knows what this is/how it works and doesn't it get written over after each match? I think it should be optional and or allow fraps to be used in its place for people who have it. (But even then, that eats a lot of harddrive space)

How long would this be going on? What happens when a team/teams are cllearly dominant? Is there an auto bump in mind for after a set amount of time?

How will you determine what the community thinks on the powers/devices etc ban list? Will it be a majority? how will that majority be determined?

Can a single fleet enter multiple teams?

And finally, I personally don't think its ever a good idea to mix space and ground when a ladder system is in place. It may lead to one or two teams constantly changes spots because one does ground challenge, while the other does space challenge. Maybe instad alterate on a preset basis, one month space, next ground, next space etd etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-26-2011, 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
Pengs, Scramble, and FAW need to be on the blacklist.
If faw goes, then I think reman fightersm shotguns, mines, should go as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-26-2011, 11:22 PM
Team Size
7 is way too high for a PvP match in STO.
1) The game system itself only supports teams of up to 5 persons.
2) People already have trouble fielding 5 team members for a PvP Tournament that only goes one day.
3) PvP Queue matches default to around 5v5 matches, which means players typically experience 5v5 matches. Breaking that for a ladder system sounds unwise.

I could see a rule like this:
Up to 10 team members (Minimum 5). Any match is 5 v 5, or 4 v 4 if both teams agree to it.
Optionally, in each match, a team can bring in a guest player (that should not be member of any other team, or at least not be a member of a team you could challenge currently.)

Also, I think the rules about "you don't have to be in a fleet" is not that relevant - most people that have 5 friends they can PewPew with regularly will be in a team.

Match Structure
There should be a time limit. Whoever got the most kills wins after that time limit. The reason is simply because some matches can take forever if there is too much healing going around. 45 Minutes is a reasonable limit. Considering that you suggest a 2 out of 3 ranking, that could still be more than 2 hours of play. That's a hefty chunk of time, especially taking time zones into account.

Scheduling Matches
There probably shouldn't be more than 1 such match per team per week. It might be wise to have some software support for handling scheduling - maybe every team has a "suggested match time" where members try to be available for games, making match-ups easier.

---

See my sig for an alternative take for player rankings (instead of team ladders.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
07-26-2011, 11:56 PM
Hmm.

Are you certain this is what is intended by leaderboards?

As I see it, basing it on predefined groups is .. perhaps not the best way to begin this.

It would probably be better/easier simply to track individuals.. That is how Ive seen systems like this implemented before.

This have one huge benefit, "normal" players can participate.. Not just the "elite" in premade "A-Teams"

Understand: There isnt that many players in Premade teams, and most people - Even hardcore PvPers - Dont care for a system like you propose. I would just hate for the Devs to spend a lot of time on this, only to see a total of 5 active teams and 70 inactive ones (would be the perfect justification for them to say "See? We just spent 300 manhours on this system, and noone is using it"

I fully expect an Cryptic designed system to be nothing but the tracking of every players statistics in PvP:

Total damage.
Av. Damage per match.
Av. Healing per match
Damage to kill ratio
Kill/Death ratio
Game win/lose ratio

Yes, this would result in players bailing from games with better players more than they do now, which is why some simple changes should be put in place:

1: You cannot leave a match in progress.
2: Purposefully disconnecting should result in some sort of "vote to give penalty" system


There is more, but this is the initial thoughts
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
07-27-2011, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
Will mixed teams be allowed?

Why demo record mode? Not everyone knows what this is/how it works and doesn't it get written over after each match? I think it should be optional and or allow fraps to be used in its place for people who have it. (But even then, that eats a lot of harddrive space)

How long would this be going on? What happens when a team/teams are cllearly dominant? Is there an auto bump in mind for after a set amount of time?

How will you determine what the community thinks on the powers/devices etc ban list? Will it be a majority? how will that majority be determined?

Can a single fleet enter multiple teams?

And finally, I personally don't think its ever a good idea to mix space and ground when a ladder system is in place. It may lead to one or two teams constantly changes spots because one does ground challenge, while the other does space challenge. Maybe instad alterate on a preset basis, one month space, next ground, next space etd etc.
I was forgetting mixed teams. Honestly I think it's a necessity. While only like 20% of STO's population plays Klinks, theres no reason to alienate them since the challenge system does allow for mixing of teams.

Demo Record is there as a record. Here is a good point, let's say we disallow something that is overpowered, like FAW or Pengs. And inside a match someone uses them when they should not be using them at all. A demo record file from every player would ensure we could go back, review the match and find out if the accusation is true or not. And this is also why we thought up the 2 week backup rule since you are correct, demo files can be quite large in file size. 2 weeks is enough time after a match for any disputes to have arisen so folks can delete the demo file then. And using it is quite simple, there is just one chat hud command you type in to turn it on and one to turn it off, nothing else required.

It continues, an on going ordeal. The biggest ladders in gaming and tournaments are still going these days and others like CPL, CAL, etc went on for years and years and years successfully. As for a team dominating, if a team can coordinate and work together so well they dominate the competition, they deserve to stay on top. That is the entire purpose of a ladder; climbing your way to the top, and holding your position.

As for determining what is over powered, that is where we need community help. Basically the way we visioned it was, lets use the the 10 team example from earlier. That's at least 50+ people there, plus ladder officials, judges etc right? We can create sort of a small player round table, with at least one representative per team or at least most teams, who can weigh in and vote on what they think is OP. As well as take feed back from the forums, OrganizedPvP, etc and reach a consensus.

Personally if it was me I'd go all ground. I was never a big fan of space combat in pvp, mainly because as an Escort, I am a glass cannon. But I do like the idea of alternating formats each month, and this could easily help breaking "top team domination" you mention, since a team may be awesome at space but suck at ground which could open it up for a lower ranked team to take the top seat away from them, further growing the competitive scene.

I think with some hard work and sweat this can work. Unlike the other ladders and leagues that have sprung up, RSA has been here since closed beta and officially began not long after launch, so you know we aren't going anywhere and while we aren't enjoyed by every podcast listener, I think everyone can agree we are true to our word and keep our promises, we've never held back and prizes or anything we promised folks

Keep the feedback coming it is appreciated
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-27-2011, 12:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Team Size
7 is way too high for a PvP match in STO.
1) The game system itself only supports teams of up to 5 persons.
2) People already have trouble fielding 5 team members for a PvP Tournament that only goes one day.
3) PvP Queue matches default to around 5v5 matches, which means players typically experience 5v5 matches. Breaking that for a ladder system sounds unwise.

I could see a rule like this:
Up to 10 team members (Minimum 5). Any match is 5 v 5, or 4 v 4 if both teams agree to it.
Optionally, in each match, a team can bring in a guest player (that should not be member of any other team, or at least not be a member of a team you could challenge currently.)
I agree on team size, thats why we initially thought 7 would be good. But if 5 is the sweet spot then that is acceptable. 5 people with maybe 2-3 alternates (registered of course) sounds fair and balanced to us. However guest players pretty much take team playing to a PuG level which goes against the entire setup of team ladder play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Hmm.

Are you certain this is what is intended by leaderboards?

As I see it, basing it on predefined groups is .. perhaps not the best way to begin this.

It would probably be better/easier simply to track individuals.. That is how Ive seen systems like this implemented before.

This have one huge benefit, "normal" players can participate.. Not just the "elite" in premade "A-Teams"

Understand: There isnt that many players in Premade teams, and most people - Even hardcore PvPers - Dont care for a system like you propose. I would just hate for the Devs to spend a lot of time on this, only to see a total of 5 active teams and 70 inactive ones (would be the perfect justification for them to say "See? We just spent 300 manhours on this system, and noone is using it"
Keep in mind this is not with Cryptic's involvement. While it would be cool for them to add such things to the game, this ladder we are proposing is entirely player made and run. Just like other ladders (MLG, CPL, OGL, etc) are all third party ladders that are not directly built into the games they support. This is not designed to incorporate leaderboards or individual stat tracking / ranks. This is about Team vs Team.

And it's open to anyone. You are correct that "normal", aka casual, players may not have a regular group to team with. Well that's where recruiting comes in. We could establish a way for people to form teams, recruit each other, etc. All of this is natural to a ladder system none of it is new or game breaking.

This is designed as a solid alternative to random PvP queues, using in-game chat channels to establish premade matches etc. It gives people something to work toward, compete it, on a regular basis. If WoW can have a successful PvP community, STO easily can.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
07-27-2011, 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavgeek View Post

Keep in mind this is not with Cryptic's involvement. While it would be cool for them to add such things to the game, this ladder we are proposing is entirely player made and run. Just like other ladders (MLG, CPL, OGL, etc) are all third party ladders that are not directly built into the games they support. This is not designed to incorporate leaderboards or individual stat tracking / ranks. This is about Team vs Team.

And it's open to anyone. You are correct that "normal", aka casual, players may not have a regular group to team with. Well that's where recruiting comes in. We could establish a way for people to form teams, recruit each other, etc. All of this is natural to a ladder system none of it is new or game breaking.

This is designed as a solid alternative to random PvP queues, using in-game chat channels to establish premade matches etc. It gives people something to work toward, compete it, on a regular basis. If WoW can have a successful PvP community, STO easily can.
Ah.. I just remember a Cryptic post at one point mentioning leaderboards.

Well.. While I may be moderately interested in this, I can certainly also see some problems with it.

1: "Newbie" PvPers - Who would want these, they might be interested, but no "serious" Ladder fleet would even consider having them.. (I know LF couldnt give a darn about the quality of the players we field, if they want to play, regardless of skill, we would accept them into our team(s)).

2: Static team setups - We all know roughly the most effective lineup.. 90% of all teams will probably be something like 3 SV, 1 Cruiser 1 Escort or 2 SV 2 Cruiser 1 Escort.. The teams for this would undoubtedly go for the most effective setups - There would, most likely, be little to no innovation (and what little there is (and is effective), would quicky be copied)

3: Broken powers - Even though we can ban current broken or OP powers/items (SS3, FAW, Pengs), you know as well as I do, that the instant Cryptic breaks (or adds) a new borked thing, certain fleets will flock to this, atleast until it is banned from use.. Imagine if this ladder had run when the original pengs or Tractormines were added.. Or when CSV3 was broken... Should all the matches fought *before* an power/item were banned from use be "legit"? This would only result in some teams that have better results than what they would normally.

Not trying to hull the idea.. Just pointing out some obvious problems I can see.


*Edit*

I have played in such a laddersystem before.. I used to play XWing vs TIE Fighter on the Zone, and I saw more often than not, how a highprofiled player would open up a 2v2 room, only to leave if 2 other highprofile players from the same guild, plus a newbie enter the room.

On that note, the system we used then, could probably be modified for use with STO:

http://battlestats.com/

There are guildsystems, tournament systems, built in statstracking (both for guilds and individuals) - This is my profile, for example:

http://battlestats.com/players/profile/1456
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
07-27-2011, 02:00 AM
Im still totally against forcing people to record their own matches, (this veiw doesn't reflect tsi's view) I just don't have the hard drive space to hold something like that, and you want each individual to hold 2 matches worth every week for 2 weeks? That's 4 massive files at any given time right?

The simpliest solution to prevent people from cheating is to make it accuser provable I think. Or have an offical in each match with recording going on.


Also...RSA?
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