Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
08-01-2011, 10:17 PM
And that's just unfortunate. Not at all unreasonable, but absolutely unfortunate...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
08-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Buff stacking isn't OP its lazy... on Cryptics part.
Buff stacking doesn't happen in MMOs in general because its a BAD idea. Cryptic has simply jacked up heal resists because they couldn't figure out how to balance dmg back when the game launched. Your point about making cross healing less effective is correct... Making stacking completely disapear might not be the way to go... diminishing returns might be more the way to go.
I misread, diminishing returns on shield resists might not be a bad idea, the problem with cryptic's resists is that they are also heals because they don't have heals good enough to keep people up without stacking resists on them. An escort's alpha can take out all of the shield points given by TSS 3 in one volley, it's the damage mitigation from the resist that is keeping them alive not the heal itself. If we did more healing and less resisting that would make it easier to crack people, but you kind of have me in a cross because to stop people from going from 2% to full you'd need less healing and more resisting. Your goal is diametrically opposed to your proposal unless you just want all heals nerfed period. I think stacking should be maintained otherwise healing will never be able to overcome dps without its healing power increased. I guess this is just the compromise you make when every class has some ability to heal as opposed to a game with a more strict role system where self-healing is scarce like D&D or something like that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
08-01-2011, 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazKid
I misread, diminishing returns on shield resists might not be a bad idea, the problem with cryptic's resists is that they are also heals because they don't have heals good enough to keep people up without stacking resists on them. An escort's alpha can take out all of the shield points given by TSS 3 in one volley, it's the damage mitigation from the resist that is keeping them alive not the heal itself. If we did more healing and less resisting that would make it easier to crack people, but you kind of have me in a cross because to stop people from going from 2% to full you'd need less healing and more resisting. Your goal is diametrically opposed to your proposal unless you just want all heals nerfed period. I think stacking should be maintained otherwise healing will never be able to overcome dps without its healing power increased. I guess this is just the compromise you make when every class has some ability to heal as opposed to a game with a more strict role system where self-healing is scarce like D&D or something like that.
To be honest when I say super stacking is a borked idea... I kinda have to think that applies to Tac skills as well. Perhaps if Hull / Shields / and DMG buffs all had diminishing returns, one wouldn't have to be crazy to balance things out. If EPTS and TSS combos where to behave more like stacking hull resists.... then Tac skills should also behave the same way. Meaning if alpha gives you 50% more dmg... and omega gives you 50% more dmg... the 2 together would only give you 75% more dmg..... (Yes I know they do dimminsh somewhat... but really its not enough to discourage people popping every buff they have at one time)

Then we add those diminishing returns to buffs and debuffs.
So TSS 3 on you for instance would get 100% effectiveness
TSS 2 on you at the same time would get 50% effectiveness
and any other copies of TSS on you would get 25%
If version 3 ends before 2 runs out that healing goes up too 100%

This way Cross healing is still effective, just not the dumb situation it is now, where one ship is getting wacked for 200-300k in dmg and its being resisted due to the max shield resist + healing from only really a couple buffs.

For this to work your are right about dmg... it would need to be treated the same way.

Attack Pattern Beta... would need the same mechanic. Best Applies 100% lower versions need to have reduced effectiveness as well.

If Cryptic has just added proper diminishing return formulas to dmg buffs in the first place... there would be no insane Alpha strikes that needed insane buff stacking..... it ALL needs to be dialed back, not just one or the other. IMO anyway... honestly it would need to go to tribble and be tested... even if Cryptic had the drive to make these sorts of changes work... they would never implement it properly. I have sort of last any faith that they could pull out a good balance sweep.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
08-02-2011, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Hit it on the head with the stacking.

The worst has always been Tacticals in Space and ground, where you click on 4 or 5 buffs and can easily kill another player. Especially when cloaked and having the cloaking attack bonus added. And when they redid the system to have more of a focus on Teamwork, all that did was make Premades tougher and PuGs easier to defeat.
There is a difference between stacking 3 Transfer Shield Strengths and 2 Hazard Emitters and a player, and using 4 different buffs to increase your damage.

The ability to stack HOTs and Resistance Buffs from the same power might be one of the bigger flaws in the system actually. The same might probably apply to stacking Attack Pattern Beta with other copies from other players. It makes focus "fire" extremely effective - and necessary for healers and damage dealers alike.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
08-02-2011, 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
[...]
If Cryptic has just added proper diminishing return formulas to dmg buffs in the first place... there would be no insane Alpha strikes that needed insane buff stacking..... it ALL needs to be dialed back, not just one or the other. [...]
That's the crux of the matter. If you only change healing/res stacking we will be back where dmg/escort was king. If you wouldn't be able to increase your dmg as high as you can now (maybe some kind of hard cap), it would be no problem to decrease resistance values and add some kind of diminishing returns on heals. No more buffed up escorts who can kill you in one pass but also no more yo-yo healing.

In the end I think we just have to reduce the difference between fully buffed (heal, res, dmg) to no buffs at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
08-02-2011, 01:46 AM
i dont think shields have a deminishing return setup like hull resists do. this is the first thing id change, make the shield resist like hull resist. this would make sci fleet nowhere near as powerful as it currently is.

that extra 50% from sci fleet is a full 50% resist. add in epts and a trasnfer and you reach the hard cap of 75% (depending on the transfer/epts you may only need one of those)

i also think engineering fleet maybe could give a general group wide power boost? say-1-2 points of power per subsystem?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
08-02-2011, 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
i dont think shields have a deminishing return setup like hull resists do. this is the first thing id change, make the shield resist like hull resist. this would make sci fleet nowhere near as powerful as it currently is.

that extra 50% from sci fleet is a full 50% resist. add in epts and a trasnfer and you reach the hard cap of 75% (depending on the transfer/epts you may only need one of those)

i also think engineering fleet maybe could give a general group wide power boost? say-1-2 points of power per subsystem?
Shield Resistances stack multiplicatively. If you got 30 % from Source 1 and 30 % from source one, you take 0.7 x 0.7 = 0.49 of the usual damage, eg have 51 % resistance instead of 60 % if you would just add them.

But that is different from hull resistance, and I have no clue why they couldn't use the hull formula for shield resistances as well.

But just reducing resistances won't do any good, then it just becomes a "DPS-Is-King" thing. Balance still not achieved.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
08-02-2011, 07:22 AM
Right now, Tac's have to blow all of their buffs in order to try to burst through the much easier and more prevalent healing/resistance. Maybe adjusting buff stacking for damage (while reducing some of the wow numbers) would actually leave Tacs more powerful than they are now when that fully buffed window closes? At any rate, while all stacking might need a look and some adjusting, unless the healing/resistance stacking is reworked significantly, declawing tac's is only going to continue the zombie cruiser era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
In the end I think we just have to reduce the difference between fully buffed (heal, res, dmg) to no buffs at all.
This is probably the ideal goal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
08-02-2011, 08:33 AM
That's it... stacking of all types of skills needs to be looked at. The shield and tac formulas they have now in game are too forgiving. Its too easy to have perfect shields, its almost as easy to triple your dmg output. Hull resists on the other hand seem to work well... you can reduce dmg, but you are never going to have a hull made of rock no matter how many buttons you push.

Honestly the game has diminishing return formulas for both shield and tac buffs in the game right now.... however I doubt cryptic knows where the values are to tweek them anymore... look at what they claimed they had to do to fix faw. LOL

Honestly if Cryptic is reading this... here is a tip for future games... make values for resistances / dmg / crit chances / proc chances / and anything else that should be corrected by sliding percentages around.... PULL from one main "Balance" library. Then it would always be a simple matter of adjusting a couple numbers in one place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
08-02-2011, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
you can reduce dmg, but you are never going to have a hull made of rock no matter how many buttons you push.

i dunno, an intrepid with its ablative going+high powered polarize+high powered aux to sif + a few team mate haz emiiters with give you near 99% hull resist.


i always wondered why the ablative armour wasnt very... ablative, seems to me that maybe when its first used its at the 90% then as time/dmg is taking the resist goes down till either its 0 or the timer runs out.
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