Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
08-02-2011, 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvsaris View Post
Perhaps a mine going off could be similar to a ship blowing up?
Not as powerful as that, but similar. Mines exploding shouldn't do the same damage as a warp core explosion, that just wouldn't make sense. However, mines exploding when triggered instead of chasing a ship would go a long way towards bringing them inline with other forms of damage output.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dvsaris View Post
In any case they need to be significantly more powerful than torpedoes. After all, in the real world a mine hit can cripple a ship, whereas damage from a single torpedo is more manageable.
I was thinking that too. Mines, with all of the preparation required, should do more damage than a torpedo. The idea that a ship can identify them at 15km range and shoot them at 10km should be enough to balance a boost in damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
08-02-2011, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnin View Post
Mines have been underpowered since beta. The damage they do is laughable when compared to other ways of damaging a target. Right now their only purpose is to create a spam field for defense against Fire At Will and Scramble Sensors.

Here's the problem:

1. Mines have to be deployed and not shot down before becoming active.

2. Once activated, mines fly towards their target before exploding, allowing players to shoot them down as they approach.

3. The damage mines do individually is so low that players can fly through a mine field and take nearly no damage.


Here are some potential solutions:

1. Make mines cloak or mask their energy signature until a player is within 5-10 km of them, allowing them to survive long enough once active to actually do some damage.

2. Instead of having mines fly towards their target once triggered, have them explode immediately and increase their damage radius to encompass any and all ships that are within activation range (trigger at 3km, damage all within 5km).

3. Mines need to be able to do more damage. This could be accomplished in a variety of ways, but the end result should be a mine that people do not want to hit their ship! I think Tricobalt mines are a good example here.


Mine skills could use some loving too. Right now Alpha drops a wall of mines behind your ship, Beta deploys something more like a trail of clusers. These are one-shot abilities currently.
What I would like to see is them becoming a ability-over-time, similar to Fire at Will or Cannon Rapid Fire: While one of these dispersal powers is in effect, it would lay mines behind you in a specific manner. Think of the Tron lightcycles for reference: Alpha would create a vertical wall behind your ship, beta would make a horizontal "floor". Each use would deploy 3-5 clusters of three mines.

Something like this would allow players to build mine fields around objects if they wanted to (if deployed mines persisted until they were destroyed).


At any rate, I've got a fleet escort sitting in drydock that I'd love to set up as a mine layer. It just needs to be a viable way to play and I'm there.
To say they hurt things 5KM away is a bit much is it not? The fact that they track a target only makes sense in space but having them deal significantly more damage, be cloaked, or attach to the hulls of the opposing ship BEFORE exploding thus allowing 100% shield penetration would be good. It could be a bit of a Debuff where you would see the mine attach and you had a small window of opportunity to use Engineering Team or the like to disarm or remove it and if you failed them BOOM! A powerful hit directly to your Hull.

After all the Mines in DS9 were cloaking and they were blasting Vor'Cha's into dust.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
08-02-2011, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
To say they hurt things 5KM away is a bit much is it not?
I think you're misinterpreting what I meant. I would like mines to detonate when triggered instead of flying after a target. The several seconds it takes to chase a ship gives that ship plenty of time to target and kill the mine.
So the idea is that the mine wouldn't move at all. Instead, when triggered at 3km, it detonates hitting any ship within 5km. This would prevent players from dragging mines back to their friends, but it would damage any ships too close to the one that triggered the mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
The fact that they track a target only makes sense in space...
Actually it makes less sense in space than you would think. The reason why sea mines move towards their target before detonating is due to the fact that water dampens explosions. Space doesn't act anything like that. There's no medium to push back, so there's no need for the explosion to take place right on the ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
but having them deal significantly more damage, be cloaked, or attach to the hulls of the opposing ship BEFORE exploding thus allowing 100% shield penetration would be good.
Cloaked or masked when they're active would be good, but they should still be detectable before you trigger them. 5km visibility, triggered at 3km, but damaging to 5km would probably be OK. The idea is, if you can see the mine you can shoot it before it will trigger; if you don't see the mine, it won't trigger unless you're at high speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
It could be a bit of a Debuff where you would see the mine attach and you had a small window of opportunity to use Engineering Team or the like to disarm or remove it and if you failed them BOOM! A powerful hit directly to your Hull.
This would be cool idea for a special item, maybe attached to a feature episode or something like that!
Say you have a mine sitting out in space and it's triggered. Then, while cloaked, it flies to the target and when it hits it it turns into a debuff called "Impaling Cluster Mine", which stacks. Once you get 5-10 impaling mines on your ship they detonate, doing tricobalt-like damage directly to your hull. The debuff could be removed with Engineering Team as long as you notice it before the detonation .
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 14
08-03-2011, 02:43 AM
My friend runs an Escort with a Science Captain, and uses Plasma mines with Dispersal Pattern Beta III. He charges at them to lower shields and, if there's anything left, drops the mines in front of them. They don't survive much longer after that :p
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 15
08-03-2011, 08:12 AM
I suppose that would be one way to use them.

I pondered using them on my Cruiser as some people in escorts are foolish enough to get real close to my tail. Knock down their forward shields and lay a mine trail. That combined with Warp Plasma to keep them from running away might produce interesting results. I may have to test this.
Lt. Commander
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# 16
08-03-2011, 08:57 AM
I actually dislike the mines in STO as they currently stand. Mines in the series were generally camouflaged, cloaked or hidden enough to be a surprise to a ship smacking in to them. The mines themselves having no need for complex guidance control or fast maneuverability also carried more 'bang' compared to their torpedo counterpart. STO makes no real attempt to allow stealthy deployment of mines to use in traps or guard a point. Part of this is due to the threat of mine spam and the fact mines are not stealthy and need high stealth detection ratings to see and counter.

I like the suggestion of having them explode by proxy instead of seeking a target while giving them a mask energy signature like ability to make them difficult to detect beyond 5km. The only issue is how kinetic damage is treated by shields which I hope is revamped when they get around to revamping torpedoes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
08-03-2011, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnin View Post
I think you're misinterpreting what I meant. I would like mines to detonate when triggered instead of flying after a target. The several seconds it takes to chase a ship gives that ship plenty of time to target and kill the mine.
So the idea is that the mine wouldn't move at all. Instead, when triggered at 3km, it detonates hitting any ship within 5km. This would prevent players from dragging mines back to their friends, but it would damage any ships too close to the one that triggered the mine. .
My point is still valid... A Nuclear BOMB only hits about 2 Miles in Diameter. What are these mines that they have significant force 5 KM away? What I am saying is that it goes against logical reasoning. It would be better if they were cloaked and chased to a limited degree as I suggested. So that if you came near them you may suddenly have one attached to your hull.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnin View Post
Actually it makes less sense in space than you would think. The reason why sea mines move towards their target before detonating is due to the fact that water dampens explosions. Space doesn't act anything like that. There's no medium to push back, so there's no need for the explosion to take place right on the ship..
The reason it makes more sense in space is this: In water you have a limited amount of area to cover with the mines. If you block a channel or harbor with them then ships HAVE to go through them. In space there is no such thing as a choke point. The best you can do is put them all the way around a space station or planet which is a bit much. The best use was infront of the Transwarp gates or the Worm Hole. Other than this if they are just sitting out in space in order to actually have a decent chance of contacting a ship they need to move to intercept that ship. Otherwise how do you plan to have any reasonable chance that a ship will just HAPPEN to come near said mine?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
08-05-2011, 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
I have watched Mines do their thing and I get the feeling that besides Tricobalt Mines (which are hard to get to the target) that Mines just do not seem to do much. Chronitons should be able to slow folks which could be useful but even the most deadly of Quantum mines seem to deal next to no real damage. Considering they are destroyable I am wondering if there is any real point to using Mines?
2 Types of Mines used to be popular in PvP: Chroniton Mines and Tri-Cobalt Mines.
The Chronitons were great for two purposes: The proc itself was very effective and a neat extra benefit, and mines tend to "spam" the place, making targeting of the actual enemy harder, and they also sometimes cause lag. The latter two aspects are highly problematic, because it basically shows that people that drop a lot of mines are just abusing the limits of the game engine.
Tri-Cobalts mine also had two things going for them: They inflict massive damage, and they inflicted a long stun period.

Tractor Beam Mines became very popular for a time as well, as you dropped 5 mines that could held a target indefinitely (until destroyed), and even hit cloaked targets. That lead to the "big" nerf off Tractor Beam Mines - 3 mines only, tractor beam effect itself weakened, and only 5 seconds or so of tractoring.
They are still not bad.

Mines got less popular when Beam Fire At Will was buffed so that everyone was running around with it. Targetable projectiles had little chance under these circumstances.

The fundamental tactical issue with mines is that they work best against hull, but you have almost no way to guarantee that any number of your mines can hit an unshielded target. Torpedoes you can make part of a regular attack run, but mines have to be dropped before the fact. So almost all mines without any special effects are weak.
From a game mechanical perspective, the other problem is that mines cost a lot of resources (which leads to lag) and targeting is suboptimal for mines. (This issue was reduced, we can now choose to not select mines when using tab to target.)

In PvE, my guess is that it's more likely you already have killed your target before you are close enough to drop any mines on him.

That said, it might be possible to make effective use of mines if you have the right build. If you use shield energy drain and shield subsystem disable procs (Beam Target Subsystem Shields, Tyken's Rift, Energy Siphon) or plainly shield drain powers (Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst), mines might work fine. With such builds, it is easier to remove the enemies shields then to destroy the ship itself.

--

I would like to see mines reconcepted in STO. Maybe not even have them as weapon slot, but as a device, more as a strategic then a tactical weapon: The ability to lay cloaked mine fields and lure your enemy into them could be interesting. (Cloaked/Stealth Mines would solve some targeting issues, and at least graphics-related lag or frame rate issues.) And it might be nice if it weren't big patches of mines we drop, but single mines that are particularly strong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
08-05-2011, 07:45 AM
1. We shouldn't make mines "devices"... that just sounds incredibly lame.


2. The only time I've really loved my mines was with my Nebula class. Faster ships can get on you in a way that the Nebula realy struggles to line-up torpedos with its glacial turning speed, and my Plasma Mines helped keep some extra damage going especially if they managed to hit an exposed hull.



I like the idea of them having some extra shield penetration... heck, I like the idea of mines to begin with. But for the most part, they just don't hit hard enough to justify the fact they can also be shot down. The only "mines" I've been using recently is the transphasic cluster torpedo... which can honestly do some tremendous damage. If I can catch someone with those with their shields low and they can't shoot em down, it's usually the fight.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
08-05-2011, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
In PvE, my guess is that it's more likely you already have killed your target before you are close enough to drop any mines on him.
I have to say... Spoken like someone who never flies PvE on Elite with more than one friend tagging along. Solo PvE is a joke but if you have some friends the enemy rapidly multiplies. Try it on Elite with 5 folks some time and get ready for some fireworks. The AI may not be incredibly smart but they can be nasty in huge groups.

That said, the Chronitons do seem like the best mines currently. Those or the Tricbalt if you drop it as you sweep past someone. I'd think that Tricobalt would actually be particularly good for a BoP. Slam their shields hard from the rear as you decloak drop the mine behind them and then disappear as you pass them. Tractor mines seem too weak to be useful at present. They do not hold most things very strongly, they do not hold long enough to be that useful, they are easily picked off, and they break the rule of a weapon which is that it should either A) Drop Shields or B) Destroy Hull.

Another fun idea for mines could be more of a Tholian Web type setup. Maybe you need to disperse a fair number around an area but if you do you can encapsulate enemies within it for a time. I bet fighters or shuttles would be awesome for doing this job as you need something very fast and maneuverable to get the net in place before the enemy escapes. BoP's likewise could be good for it.
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