Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Explain the Tier system please
08-04-2011, 11:57 AM
WIshstone has this to say about the topic of many popular ships being added to Tier 5:

Quote:
This is not a new topic and it has been discussed in numerous threads. By now we've taken to closing these threads, as the topic really has reached a point where it cannot come to a conclusion other than "no". As much as we hate saying "no" - sometimes that is all that is left.
Unfortunately, the Excelsior exists at Tier 5 right now.

And that seems to go against the point of the tier system.

So please, explain the tier system? Someone?

Defend it? Explain how it all works and why it works the way it works?

I'd love to hear a developer, even a lead developer, explain it and defend it. I doubt that's going to happen. However, many many many customers have repeatedly shot holes in the logic of the tier system. Using the ships the company and developers have placed at Tier 5 as the ammunition to shoot the tier system down.

So anyone have a crack at this.

At the very least it will be a fun and engaging discussion. Grab the bull by the horns, so to speak. Lay out the entire set of ships from T1 to T5 and explain what crazy insane logic was used to set each ship where it is.

Cause right now all it does is confuse me. I don't see how a Nomad, a Nebula and an Excelsior can be superior to an Olympic, Nova or Akira in terms of BOFF layout.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
08-04-2011, 12:15 PM
Umm... it exists as it does b/c that's the way game developers want it?
Lt. Commander
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# 3
08-04-2011, 01:44 PM
I don't know the "real" reason for the tier system, but I know a bit about game design so here's my educated guess:

Basically there are two factors at play in the creation of the tier system:
1. Some ships are presented in the source material as simply better than other ships (Voyager vs Equinox, Enterprise D vs Enterprise C, etc.)
2. RPGs and MMOs in particular usually have an advancement path where players get newer and better gear and abilities over time. STO was designed to include that design pattern.

Then post launch, it became clear that a large portion of (but not all of) the player base wants to play their favorite ship at end game (and have it be balanced against other end game ships) and doesn't care if the source material says they shouldn't be competitive against the other end game classes. Thus we got the retrofits, and almost all new ships have been end game ships.

The result looks pretty haphazard but it's largely a result of Cryptic trying to please everyone as best they can.
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# 4 Out of context quote
08-04-2011, 02:08 PM
WHoa there... air brakes!

Superchum, you took that out of context there neighbor.

For others let me state where this came from, that came from a discussion of a Connie T5 that folks keep pushing at. CBS, Dan, and Cap'Logan all stated yeah not going to happen. Logan stated it best of all, its a 200 year old ship its not the future, and they are not going to create a "wolf in sheep's clothing". She simply got point blank with the answer, it needed to be said. I won't apologize if many liked it or not, but, hey its an honest one.

I don't mind holding others to what they say, but lets be exact in what they say, and what they said it about, the whole thing. Starting this thread out with bashing and demands when you misquote someone out of context? I'll be honest, I am surprised. nearly Floored me.

Simply because we dont like the answer we got, hey its understandable, but lets be forthcoming with all things. I'd love to have somethings different too, but there has to be some order to some things too.

We can of course demand all we like, probably not going to get an answer with a opening post like that. Well we might get a post, but probably not the one we are expecting.
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# 5
08-04-2011, 02:10 PM
He has already been banned so there's not much point in continuing the discussion here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 6
08-04-2011, 02:11 PM
Here is the whole thing..

Originally Posted by Hravik
From the May Ask Cryptic.
Q: dorko1 I know that the refit is still a touchy subject, but could you guys shed any light on what might happen? I understand that there should be obvious misgivings about the idea of the Constitution class outmatching a vessel 200 yrs new and twice its size, but a replica that's really more of an Excalibur class vessel might be able to add something to the mix.
A: You are correct that it is a touchy subject amongst the community and based on the discussions we've had with CBS about ships, I don't think we're going to put a high-end Constitution Class refit into the game. You can still have a lower tier TOS Connie use the Squad Leader feature to bring their stats up to a higher level, but the odds of an end game Connie refit is a long shot.

Edit: Its also been asked of dstahl and CapnLogan in a few interviews. The answer is the same every time: extremely unlikely to ever happen.

WishStone wrote:
Thank you!

Very much this. This is not a new topic and it has been discussed in numerous threads. By now we've taken to closing these threads, as the topic really has reached a point where it cannot come to a conclusion other than "no". As much as we hate saying "no" - sometimes that is all that is left.

Sorry, you guys.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 7
08-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
He has already been banned so there's not much point in continuing the discussion here.
true, just seen enough half truths, decided yeah no more of that silliness.
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# 8
08-10-2011, 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
(Voyager vs Equinox, Enterprise D vs Enterprise C, etc.)
Then why is the Enterprise B more powerful than the Enterprise C, D and E in this game?

That's the problem with the tier system. It doesn't actually reflect that.

@Mongoson: I took nothing out of context. I simply created a new thread to discuss what the core issue with the tier system is. I want to understand what the logic behind this is since there doesn't seem to be any logic there at all. Because the Excelsior flouts that logic.

So how does the tier system work? Why is it the way it is?

Can someone properly explain the tier system, using the ships at T5 as examples of support for the tier system to be the way it is? I want to understand why the tier system stopped reflecting a power progression, like Turtlwing suggested and now reflects ... some sort of mixed up and anachronistic progression.

So help me. Help all of us. Here's a great chance to finally shed light on one of the biggest mysteries in the game's mechanics, and also really get at the core of where other very popular and oft-posted topics come from.
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# 9
08-10-2011, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Then why is the Enterprise B more powerful than the Enterprise C, D and E in this game?
I would say it's more that the Lakota (and not the Enterprise B) is more powerful than the Enterprise C, D and E.
Lt. Commander
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# 10
08-10-2011, 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxiaGuy View Post
I would say it's more that the Lakota (and not the Enterprise B) is more powerful than the Enterprise C, D and E.
Since it is the same Class in-uniferse and the exact same ship in production the Lakota beeing stronger then the Enterprises C,D and E means the Enterprise B being stronger then the Enterprise C,D and E. And dont even bother to try that "its not the same excelsior class, the Exclesior from that century is full of modern technology bla bla bla" crap, ALL SHIPS OF THAT CENTURY are foll of modern technology.
Why should they even develop Galaxy, Ambassador and Souvereign classes if they had a better shipclass that JUST had to be build with modern technology, that argument doesnt work, never did AND never will.

The Op is right after all out-of-context-quote or not, expaining the Tier system with canon-balance is over since the Excelsior arrived (remember that there is a t4 galaxy, wich means that an Excelsior can be MUCH stronger then a Galaxy!) , and thats a good thing because that kind of restriction just lowers the fun.
But since they have startet it, why NOW stopping and keeping (more modern ships then the Excelsior) like Akira and Nova away from t5?
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