Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
08-10-2011, 06:38 AM
I kinda get that it's "logical", from a canon point of view, that some ships are weaker and thus go into lower tiers.

A ship like the Excelsior is a break of that logic, obviously. But that doesn'T have to mean we use it as a precent to justify other ships being uplifted to Tier 5. It can just mean that the Excelsior is an outlier, a bad spot in the system, something we have to deal with now that it's there and people payed their money and all, but we don't have to repeat it.

But one could also say - the logic is all fine and dandy, but ultimately, it only looks at things from a canon perspective, not from a gameplay perspective. And the current system means that we grow out of our favorite ships and have to pick ships we don't like if we want to stay competitive. And is that logic, by gameplay? Shouldn't levelling always seem like a boon?

I have no strong opinion either way. I kinda like the idea of Tier 5 Akiras and Novas and all that. But on the other hand, I also feel that it's violating the source material to allow this.

The real inconsistency might seem that Cryptic said before "fun trumps canon", and that they put a lot of emphasis on rich customziation options - but in this case, it doesn't seem to apply.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
08-10-2011, 06:38 AM
Yeah. The Akira (and the Nova) both really fuel this discussion for me.

We've seen the Akira (in First Contact and DS9 ... DS9 being the same show that the beloved Lakota was in) take on Borg and dominion ships like a real top notch bad$@%. We've seen the Nova kicking around in the future in Enterprise scenes.

I can't wrap my brain around a tier system that has an excelsior, any excelsior, at the top of the line but then restricts Akiras and Novas and other ships (like a stargazer class even, or an excalibur). The excelsior outclasses newer ships. Cryptic ships even.

How does that work?

EDIT: To clarify, the Stargazer class is a much newer ship. It's not the USS Stargazer that Picard captained. That was a constellation class ship. It's a new class of ship named in honor of Picard's ship. Sometimes that gets very confused on these forums so I just wanted to clarify.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
08-10-2011, 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
Since it is the same Class in-uniferse and the exact same ship in production the Lakota beeing stronger then the Enterprises C,D and E means the Enterprise B being stronger then the Enterprise C,D and E.
Not exactly. The Lakota is an Excelsior Refit. It's not the Excelsior as it was Ent B - and even the B being a Retrofit from the base Excelsior.

The problem isn't the tier structure. The problem was CBS being too cheap to make new models so they simply reused what they had in inventory for DS9. Thus we have the Lakota fighting the Defiant on equal terms even though one ship is nearly 100 years old and the other is brand new. No one would believe the TOS Connie could defeat the TMP Connie, and that's only 30 years difference in time. Using the Excelsior was a stupid mistake that has now been forced into canon. So now in game we have to try and make sense why an ancient Excelsior can be the same tier as a Defiant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
08-10-2011, 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Yeah. The Akira (and the Nova) both really fuel this discussion for me.

We've seen the Akira (in First Contact and DS9 ... DS9 being the same show that the beloved Lakota was in) take on Borg and dominion ships like a real top notch bad$@%. We've seen the Nova kicking around in the future in Enterprise scenes.

I can't wrap my brain around a tier system that has an excelsior, any excelsior, at the top of the line but then restricts Akiras and Novas and other ships (like a stargazer class even, or an excalibur). The excelsior outclasses newer ships. Cryptic ships even.

How does that work?
When taking measurements in a science project, and taking an isolated measurement that is out of line with expectation, it is not uncommon to declare it as a measurement error. Maybe that's what the Excelsior is - a measurement error. It will stay where it is because people bought it as a Tier 5 ship and all, but... It's actually a fluke. You have to ignore it for the big picture.

Mustrum "Devil's Advocat" Ridcully
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
08-10-2011, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I kinda get that it's "logical", from a canon point of view, that some ships are weaker and thus go into lower tiers.

A ship like the Excelsior is a break of that logic, obviously. But that doesn'T have to mean we use it as a precent to justify other ships being uplifted to Tier 5. It can just mean that the Excelsior is an outlier, a bad spot in the system, something we have to deal with now that it's there and people payed their money and all, but we don't have to repeat it.

But one could also say - the logic is all fine and dandy, but ultimately, it only looks at things from a canon perspective, not from a gameplay perspective. And the current system means that we grow out of our favorite ships and have to pick ships we don't like if we want to stay competitive. And is that logic, by gameplay? Shouldn't levelling always seem like a boon?

I have no strong opinion either way. I kinda like the idea of Tier 5 Akiras and Novas and all that. But on the other hand, I also feel that it's violating the source material to allow this.

The real inconsistency might seem that Cryptic said before "fun trumps canon", and that they put a lot of emphasis on rich customziation options - but in this case, it doesn't seem to apply.

But it is already happening, all over the place. The Excelsior may be the most obvious example, but by far not the only one.
I could NEVER see a singel Defaint, an Intrepit, or a Luna class vessel... or even my beloved Bird of Prey (and I'm not even speaking of the Tie-fighter-like ds9 versions) even in the same legue like the Souvereign, Galaxy and may be Prometheus.
But without that we would be basicly limitet to... that 3 ships. Negh'va for the Klingons may be.... (but that got ripped appart by the GX in "our" time, too, prety fast).
Also, the source material got violatet all over the place in STO. People seem to forget what the "Uni" part in "Uniform" means, Cardassians working with Jem'hadar beside what happened in "What you leave behind" ect ect ect.
Cloaking Devices on fed ships? The Defaint had her form the romulans and that was a big expectation, the GX we saw was from a Timeline where the Romulans were gone and Algeron with them. (and even IF Algeron would be gone in another way, ALL fed ships would have cloak, or at least most of them since its shown to be not that hard to implement it into ANY ship)

So people are really going with all of that, some of wich is VERY unreasonable, and still are againt ships like Akira and Nova at T5 although THATS not even unresonable compared to the major part of ships that ARE t5?

I mean I understand that the line has to be drawn somewhere, I understand (wich doesnt mean I agree) that ships like the Miranda or Constitution or NX won't appear at t5.
But excluding especially Akira and Nova is pure mindless randomness.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
08-10-2011, 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
So people are really going with all of that, some of wich is VERY unreasonable, and still are againt ships like Akira and Nova at T5 although THATS not even unresonable compared to the major part of ships that ARE t5?
I agree that the Akira should be a higher tier: T4. The Rhode Island did nothing in those 2 seconds we see it in combat to convince me that it should be a higher tier. And I don't think the Excelsior should be T5. It should also be kicked back to T4, IMO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
08-10-2011, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
I agree that the Akira should be a higher tier: T4. The Rhode Island did nothing in those 2 seconds we see it in combat to convince me that it should be a higher tier. And I don't think the Excelsior should be T5. It should also be kicked back to T4, IMO.
Then we do not need them at all.
And whats the point of low tier ships? With my last char I activatet the 8hour xp boost at Commander 8 and it ran off at RA 3. That means I spend less then 6 hours with the t4 ship, but I'm supposed to use the t5 for years.

Also, the whole point of the discussion is that the Tier system does not mirror canon balance.
And where did you draw the conclusion that the Akira is any worst then the Defaint? Or Intrepit?
And why does the Rhode Island has to "prove" anything to convince somebody? She "proves" to be pretty good through beeing still in service more then a century after STO.

Sorry, I don't intent to be offensive, but I'm a little fed up with people randomly assigning ships to lower (and with that almost useless) tiers just because they somehow feel they should be weaker, without even the hint of a reason behind it.

Also, between all that nitpicking on what ship A did in 2 seconds screentime here, and what ship B did in 4 Seconds screentime there, and what the Defaint could do with her narrative-godmode-feature (probably a C-Store-console from a low tier ship) there: We should remember that the "Canon-balances" are and always were ENTIRELY random.
Ships were as strong and as weak as the PLOT NEDDET THEM TO BE.
If the Plot would habe needet the Enterprise D to be beaten by another federation ship and just the Orberth-class model would have been available, the Orberth class would have beaten the Galaxy class. And if there wouldnt have been enough money for effects of the episode, it would have done that very fast and easy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
08-10-2011, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
And where did you draw the conclusion that the Akira is any worst then the Defaint? Or Intrepit?
I consider the Defiant and Intrepid to be T4 ships that have been Retrofit to T5. A stock Akira should have been a T4 choice rather then T3 as well, IMO. Whether or not it should get a Retrofit to T5 from there is another issue entirely.

Quote:
And why does the Rhode Island has to "prove" anything to convince somebody? She "proves" to be pretty good through beeing still in service more then a century after STO.
That's all speculation. As I have said before, the Class could have been Retrofit several times to still be in service in the 26th century but 1 second of screen time doesn't tell us anything about how powerful it is compared to other ships of that time period. That Nova could make our T5 ships look like babies but compared to the Ent J it might be a baby itself - and really no more effective then the Miranda were in the Battle of DS9.

It's great to speculate but 3 shots against 2 Negh'vars and 1 second of screen time in the Battle of Procyon V does not mean the ship is T5 any more then seeing Mirandas fighting along side the Defiant and Galaxy Class ships mean they are T5 ships. 1+1 doesn't equal 3 no matter how much you want it to.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
08-10-2011, 07:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
Ships were as strong and as weak as the PLOT NEDDET THEM TO BE.
This ^^.

All of the arguments about the DS9 Excelsior vs. Defiant battle justifying a tier 5 excelsior (or any battle between sci-fi ship A against sci-fi ship B) are silly and pointless.

If I had to guess, I would say the tier system is in place to give players a feeling of advancement tied to earning new ships. This means that somebody at Cryptic will have to arbitrarily decide what tier each ship goes into, instantly creating forum rage when a subset of players think Cryptic has made the wrong decision.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Cryptic maybe looked at their player stats to determine tier levels of new ships. If they have stats that indicate a lot of thier players spend more time leveling/screwing around at tier 2, then they would want to c-store a ship that would be attractive to a tier 2 player, right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
08-10-2011, 03:09 PM
The Tier heirarchy makes perfect sense. Every ship is for the most part arranged in order of size, not technology. A Sovereign is more powerful than a Galaxy which is more powerful than an Excelsior which is just as powerful as a Cheyenne which is more powerful than a Constitution. A TOS Constitution upgraded to the most modern equipment IS a Constitution refit. A Cheyenne upgraded to the most modern equipment IS a Stargazer. Age or tech level doesn't enter into it.

What DOESN'T make sense is the RETROFIT system. An Excelsior retrofit somehow takes a T3 spaceframe and makes it T5. A Galaxy retrofit somehow takes a T4 spaceframe (granted, it has more mass than the T5, but isn't specialized for combat) and makes it T5. A B'Rel retrofit somehow takes a T1 spaceframe and makes it T5. The devs chose to make these ships retrofit, and break the rules of the Tier system. Why? Presumably because they didn't want to introduce a ship into the C-store that could not be used at max level, because they felt no one would buy it.

Notice what has changed with the Oberth and Rhode Island. The devs have said themselves that the concept behind both ships is that in addition to a ship which you can use at a particular Tier, you also get a console you can use at any Tier. So your purchase continues to be useful. So their previous strategy of making sure all C-store ships were Tier 5 has changed.

Does this mean that if the Excelsior were introduced today, it would be a T3.5 ship with a Transwarp console? Possibly. But that ship has already sailed, and so the devs cannot just pull back the already released ship and dramatically change its performance.

Personally, I feel that the problem is not the Tier system, but the IMPLEMENTATION of the Tier system. It is not that we have a Tier system, it is that it has TOO MUCH EFFECT on players of a higher level. You cannot use a Tier 1 ship at VA because there are too many penalties involved in using that ship. You do not get full use of your Command skills, you do not get full use of your Bridge Officer abilities, and your ship's stats are not balanced against foes of your level. There's nothing wrong with a Tier 3 ship being weaker than a Tier 5 ship, but in a manner that allows it to still have a chance of success.

Since such a system does not exist, though, the devs chose to make the Excelsior, Nebula, Galaxy, Defiant, and Intrepid usable at Tier 5 by introducing A WHOLE NEW SHIP. A whole new ship which, according to the rules of Tiering should be weaker than Tier 5, but which because THEY ARE TIER 5, have to be balanced to be equal. Which allows minor details such as a greater turn speed (due to the Excelsior's significantly reduced mass) to give it an advantage. Plus, the devs chose to give that ship a significantly more powerful Bridge Officer layout.

If the Defiant and Excelsior could be upgraded from T4 and T3 respectively to be COMPETITIVE with each other, while still ranked in order of Tier, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the devs' solution to the upgrade question WAS the retrofit system. So instead of a logical Tier system that ranks ships by size, we have a logical Tier system that ranks ships by size, on top of which we have a retrofit system that takes the devs' favorite ships (the ones they have chosen to retrofit so far) and sticks them all at the endgame.

I will sign off by saying that, yes, the Defiant, Akira and Nebula ARE out of order of Tier ranking, by virtue of their size. However, I've always explained that by saying that the Defiant, by virtue of its design, packs EVERYTHING that has to do with being a warship into its frame, and discards everything else. (Note that the Defiant was never away from DS9 for long, and the Valiant was on a training mission not meant to be longer than three months) The Akira and Nebula, conversely, are cruiser hybrids, and thus take up a lot of space with crew and storage. They also have a turn rate that reflects their size. Even the Cruisers reach a point at which their turn rate becomes excessive, and they start to get smaller and less specialized.

So I don't have a problem with either the Prometheus or the Hermes being a better ESCORT than the Akira. Although neither is a better CRUISER. In fact, I would argue that the Galaxy is the best CRUISER in the game. The Sovereign and Avenger are not better at being Cruisers, they are better at being the hybrids that they are.
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