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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Okay, this might turn into a huge debate I'm not entirely sure. I've been looking around on the forums about this subject. I have been coming across conflicting and (sometimes) reasonable conclusions about this Starship Engineering Skill. Some of these I think are hearsay or are based entirely in conjecture based on minimal observations in the game.

On multiple threads I read they said that it does absolutely nothing for you in game or only has intangible effect. See Here from MustrumRidcully* and also Here from BigRedJedi*

On another thread it was speculated that it offers a minor counter against Viral Matrix and the Target Subsystems line of abilities based on available crew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadB
There have been reports that it reduces the duration of 'disable subsystem' effects (such as the special effect of phasers, or the Target Subsystem abilities), but I haven't seen any proper testing to back this up (although it would be quite hard to test properly).
See Quoted Post HERE

To be honest after several hours of digging through the forum and asking around in game; only finding conflicting results I figured it was time to post my questions and I hope this is the proper venue for this.

1. Lets be honest does anyone actually know what Subsystem Repair actually does outside of sheer speculation from the tool tip?

2. If it does offer a minor counter to Subsystem shut down components of the target subsystem XYZ and other such skills and abilities; does it scale with the amount of alive crew?

Note: Now I'm guilty of such speculation however if the answer to number two us "yes" then it would be reasonable to speculate that cruisers, and other crew heavy ships, would benefit the most from this skill. For testing purposes these ships would be the most ideal prospect for any noticeable differences from this skill. That's assuming the authors in the first two referenced threads are correct that the effects are almost intangible.

3. Has anyone, to date, tried to test this skill and have, unbiased, results and data to show? If so and there is already a thread that I've missed I do apologize and kindly ask to be pointed to that thread.

4. After all is said and done I refer to the title of this thread. Is it useful or is it fluff? before answering this ask yourself "every time I was killed in PvP was it because my systems were shut down and I couldn't fire off <name of life saving skill here>?"**

Currently I do happen to have Subsystem Repair at 9 and yes I do notice a reduction in the time that my subsystems are down... ~ 3 seconds as opposed to 10. I captain a Star Cruiser 1000 crew. Should someone, who understands the math involved, decide to test this ability I am willing to be a test subject if only to shed some light on this matter. I can be contacted in game as Lazarus@Benjamin.Lederman or simply reply to this thread. I would test this myself however I do not fully understand the mathematical intricacies or the formulas that would be involved in such an undertaking.

*Note: I am only referencing material and hold no opinions as to the authors statements or claims.
** Yes! I have had this happen to me many times.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
07-28-2011, 11:44 PM
I don't think anyone has done any more testing then what was already referred.

You don't really need that much "math" analysis to figure out if there is a difference.

But to the numbers you found: What effects did disable your subsystems? ~3 could be 5 seconds, meaning it was a phaser proc, I don't know which effect would disable a subsystem for 10 seconds - Viral Matrix or Boarding Party perhaps? Or was it always the same source (player, skilling, power)?

For testing, it would probably be sufficient at first to try two ships with 2 different skillings of Subsystem Repair. One ship with a low innate crew, and one with a high innate crew.
You could later make a test where you try to kill the target ship's crew first. (Probably keeping firing on it for a while but allow it to heal should do that trick.)
The attacker should use the same powers against each ship, without changing his skills for them.

Unfortunately I have already dispatched BigRedJedi to research cloak/stealth and stealth sight. :p He likes to do these illuminating experiments.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
07-29-2011, 12:08 AM
Viral Matrix would be the one I was thinking of. However the main reason I'm questioning this is well I want to know... Honestly, unless it's giving me a tangible benefit, those 9 points could be better spent elsewhere on my sheet perhaps in ground combat boosting up my Orbital strike. However, though it's not impossible I don't see the devs putting a skill like that in the tree without it giving some kind of a tangible effect.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
07-29-2011, 12:27 AM
I read both Mustrum and BigRed's posts about the viability of Subsystems repair a ways back and respeced two of my toons out of it, (they had 9s in it before). I have noticed no appreciable difference between them and the five other toons I have that still have Subsystems Repair maxed. I did get hit with a Target Subsystems: Engines the other week that took forever to shake but I think it would have taken just as long to shake if I had Subsystems repair maxed.

I would be happy to be a target with my non Subsystem repair and maxed Subsystem Repair toons if one of the PvP math gurus would like to use me as a test subject. I am on mornings Pacific time and all night Sunday if that helps. You can PM me or ping me on TenForwardForum chat, TTS chat, and KDFAssistance.

Lets see I have a KDF LtG tac in a cruiser with it maxed and a Fed VA tac in an escort without it and I have two VA engies, one in a Fleet Escort and the other in the Excie, that I can set up for the test. That way we can rule out career just in case that might me a factor. I also have a MG2 Sci in a BoP and a Capt8 Fed Sci in a SV.

If I can help let me know.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
07-30-2011, 02:40 PM
In a thread concerning fighters in the klingons ship yard, i was told by Mistformsquirrel, who is known for good testing that it effected fighters. I do not know what the nature of that effect is, but I trust Mist, beyond that I can say the repairing of hull and the crew survival thing has been reported to me from multiple good sources as being useless. I will say it's not the only skill on the tree that has been shown to not be working as described, squad command by my own testing is only minimally effecting one of the skills it is said to effect and not effecting at all the other it is described as effecting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
07-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Knowing Cryptic, you cannot be sure of anything in this game. And there have been alot of tests and alot of people saying there is no actually difference applied to any kind of subsystem disaable, be it Phaser Proc or Target subsystems. Even if this would decrease the time of how long a subsystem would be down (+52), it would be too insignificant to even bother skilling it to max. (Its not worth the skillpoint investment)

I believe +52 would be about 1,xx seconds for a phaser proc, and a few seconds for a target subsystem ability.

Ive done numberous testings with fleetmembers and the result is inconclusive. We cannot be sure, but we do not notice any difference as well when we tested this out and timed the procs and subsystem targeting.

Too much skillpoints for something you cannot verify

On a side note: You may have 1000 crew members, i have 50 on my defiant, so that would mean 10 seconds disable on your ship would be a few minutes on my Defiant? Remember that having a big crew can be achieved because you have a big ship, but a big ship also needs more repairing and maintenance. This also scales. Same goes for hull repair/crew/shipsize
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
07-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Unfortunately I have already dispatched BigRedJedi to research cloak/stealth and stealth sight. :p He likes to do these illuminating experiments.
And that has been 'interesting', thus far, but difficult to draw conclusions...

To the topic at hand, I will go digging through my files and see if I can find the hard numbers for the effectiveness of putting skillpoints in Subsystem Repair (or lack thereof), but, as I recall, the differences are negligible (less than 2 seconds at maximum skill). (Edit: Also, it does not scale with the amount of crew, the tests were performed on all 3 classes of vessel, to eliminate that as a possibility.)

The most compelling argument against using the skill, however, even more than its very limited usefulness, is that, unlike every other skill-box in the game, Subsystem Repair benefits ZERO BOff skills... All BOff skills in-game derive benefit from 3 skills, one Tier 1 skill, one Tier 2 skill, and one Tier 3-5 skill; Subsystem Repair is used for none of them, thus, you are essentially wasting skillpoints on a skill that gives you such a limited return, that you are handicapping yourself by putting points into it, by limiting the skillpoints that are benefiting the skills that you actually utilize.

Subsystem Repair is a holdover skill from Beta, that used to have an impact in 2-3 BOff skills, but late changes to the skill tree removed it from that role, leaving it as an evolutionary holdover, without real usefulness in the current game environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin.Lederman
4. After all is said and done I refer to the title of this thread. Is it useful or is it fluff? before answering this ask yourself "every time I was killed in PvP was it because my systems were shut down and I couldn't fire off <name of life saving skill here>?"**
Have I asked myself this question? Yes... However, it has always been a result of being shutdown entirely, due to Photonic Shockwave or a Tricobalt weapon, and never because of a single Phaser proc or Target: Subsystem disable, thus, I would conclude that "it is fluff".

-Big Red Goomba
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
07-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
And that has been 'interesting', thus far, but difficult to draw conclusions...

To the topic at hand, I will go digging through my files and see if I can find that hard numbers for the effectiveness of putting skillpoints in Subsystem Repair (or lack thereof), but, as I recall, the differences are negligible (less than 2 seconds at maximum skill). (Edit: Also, it does not scale with the amount of crew.)

The most compelling argument against using the skill, however, even more than its very limited usefulness, is that, unlike every other skill-box in the game, Subsystem Repair benefits ZERO BOff skills... All BOff skills in-game derive benefit from 3 skills, one Tier 1 skill, one Tier 2 skill, and one Tier 3-5 skill; Subsystem Repair is used for none of them, thus, you are essentially wasting skillpoints on a skill that gives you such a limited return, that you are handicapping yourself by putting points into it, by limiting the skillpoints that are benefiting the skills that you actually utilize.

Subsystem Repair is a holdover skill from Beta, that used to have an impact in 2-3 BOff skills, but late changes to the skill tree removed it from that role, leaving it as an evolutionary holdover, without real usefulness in the current game environment.



Have I asked myself this question? Yes... However, it has always been a result of being shutdown entirely, due to Photonic Shockwave, and never because of a single Phaser proc or Target: Subsystem disable, thus, I would conclude that "it is fluff".

-Big Red Goomba
It's a appendix? Why am I amused by this?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
07-31-2011, 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
Subsystem Repair is a holdover skill from Beta, that used to have an impact in 2-3 BOff skills, but late changes to the skill tree removed it from that role, leaving it as an evolutionary holdover, without real usefulness in the current game environment.
^ yep. I think what happened is that sometime in Beta they reduce the duration that a system could be disabled which made all the skills that re-enable systems pretty useless for that purpose.

I think the idea was that it "wasn't fun" for players to be disabled for "long" durations, so they nerfed it. Even though there were plenty of counters, players didn't want to be forced to pick up counter skills, and they didn't want to be forced to rely on other players to help them out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
07-31-2011, 09:17 AM
I've been playing since beta, this power once mattered but ever since VM was nerfed this item has no real use.

Pre-nerf getting hit by VM was the kiss of death unless you were a cruiser with massive hullpoints.
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