Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
08-13-2011, 11:22 AM
Just got back from a C&H hold game that degenerated into a turkey-shoot because of chain-SNB, mine spam, and fighter spam. The opposing sci team / tac team even proceeded to completely clear our starbase of ALL turrets. Each sci-player brought in photonic fleet with their MVAMs... as you can tell, this added up to a lot of targetting issues. Everyone on my team could usually mount a defense until the chain SNB's started coming in. Typically our opponents attacked with Target Subsystem Engines, SNB, Photonic Fleet, Scorpion Fighters, and Mines. I usually Sci-Team the first SNB away, but then another one comes in and secures a lock-down now that my skills are on CD. After that, it was over.

I don't mind a zombie cruiser tanking my attacks because they are not putting out significant DPS while their main system power is diverted towards shields and other defenses. However, SNB has absolutely no penalty towards the sci captain using it.

Since there are many here that oppose any change to SNB, I have a counter-proposal: Cryptic could improve Fire On My Mark and Rotate Shield Frequencies with some skill modifying or removal properties. For example, FOMM could be made to remove a random buff every times a critical hit lands on the target (this could be limited to only BO abilities if a global version proves itself too good). Rotate Shield Frequencies could be made to occasionally reflect debuffs back to their senders. The latter would bring other captain-only skills on-par with SNB without any nerfs involved.

Thoughts and comments are welcome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
08-13-2011, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Just got back from a C&H hold game that degenerated into a turkey-shoot because of chain-SNB, mine spam, and fighter spam. The opposing sci team / tac team even proceeded to completely clear our starbase of ALL turrets. Each sci-player brought in photonic fleet with their MVAMs... as you can tell, this added up to a lot of targetting issues. Everyone on my team could usually mount a defense until the chain SNB's started coming in. Typically our opponents attacked with Target Subsystem Engines, SNB, Photonic Fleet, Scorpion Fighters, and Mines. I usually Sci-Team the first SNB away, but then another one comes in and secures a lock-down now that my skills are on CD. After that, it was over.

I don't mind a zombie cruiser tanking my attacks because they are not putting out significant DPS while their main system power is diverted towards shields and other defenses. However, SNB has absolutely no penalty towards the sci captain using it.

Since there are many here that oppose any change to SNB, I have a counter-proposal: Cryptic could improve Fire On My Mark and Rotate Shield Frequencies with some skill modifying or removal properties. For example, FOMM could be made to remove a random buff every times a critical hit lands on the target (this could be limited to only BO abilities if a global version proves itself too good). Rotate Shield Frequencies could be made to occasionally reflect debuffs back to their senders. The latter would bring other captain-only skills on-par with SNB without any nerfs involved.

Thoughts and comments are welcome.
SNB is fine the way it is... perhaps you should argue for a SNB immunity after the first one to slow the all sci team multi nuke attack.

Buffing Tac skills that have no penalty for the tac captain using them isn't going to work. (you see what I did there) Really though your right there is no down side for a sci captain using a sub nuke... accept that they have to think and use it at the best time.... if you are using every single buff on your attacks you deserve to have them all on cool down. Attack Pattern Alpha has ZERO down side ever. it is never a bad time to alpha up.

A 20 second or so Immunity to Subnuke after it is used on you however would be acceptable. It would stop the activity you are talking about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
08-13-2011, 12:25 PM
5 seconds of immunity after being subbed would be enough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
08-13-2011, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
5 seconds of immunity after being subbed would be enough.
Your right... I was thinking cool down timers... but ya the strip is all you really need protection from.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
08-13-2011, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
SNB is fine the way it is... perhaps you should argue for a SNB immunity after the first one to slow the all sci team multi nuke attack.
Already did... remember this old thread? You posted the last reply in it:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=226315

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Buffing Tac skills that have no penalty for the tac captain using them isn't going to work. (you see what I did there) Really though your right there is no down side for a sci captain using a sub nuke... accept that they have to think and use it at the best time.... if you are using every single buff on your attacks you deserve to have them all on cool down. Attack Pattern Alpha has ZERO down side ever. it is never a bad time to alpha up.

A 20 second or so Immunity to Subnuke after it is used on you however would be acceptable. It would stop the activity you are talking about.
AP-Alpha is a self-buff, and no self-buff in STO has any downside. SNB is a target debuff like no other debuff in STO since it erases all target buffs present, even captain-only skills. So, no, I don't understand the point you are currently attempting to make. SubNuc seems to have many detractors at the moment, and after so many complaints, outside observers have to start wondering why.

I did propose an SNB immunity timer in the previously linked thread above, but even that one raised objections. So, my next suggestion was to grant other skill-altering properties to other captain-only skills -- this stops skill removal from being monopolized by any single class, thereby bringing equality to all players.

Either way, I'm still seeing the same chain-SNB's optimized teams tearing up PVP. I don't think non-sci captains will remain competitive while the present environment remains as-is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
08-13-2011, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Already did... remember this old thread? You posted the last reply in it:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=226315



AP-Alpha is a self-buff, and no self-buff in STO has any downside. SNB is a target debuff like no other debuff in STO since it erases all target buffs present, even captain-only skills. So, no, I don't understand the point you are currently attempting to make. SubNuc seems to have many detractors at the moment, and after so many complaints, outside observers have to start wondering why.

I did propose an SNB immunity timer in the previously linked thread above, but even that one raised objections. So, my next suggestion was to grant other skill-altering properties to other captain-only skills -- this stops skill removal from being monopolized by any single class, thereby bringing equality to all players.

Either way, I'm still seeing the same chain-SNB's optimized teams tearing up PVP. I don't think non-sci captains will remain competitive while the present environment remains as-is.
Ya that old thread got off topic I guess.

I agree with you that there should be a SNB immunity. You should not be able to chain them.

Where I don't agree is that ANY of your buffs should be sacred. The number of sci you see running around is a direct result of Cryptic allowing buffs to stack. Its idiotic and very un MMO.

Tac Skills tack which is dumb.... Engi Skills stack which is dumb... Shield Resist stack to stupid numbers for stupid amounts of time.

Bottom line is until Cryptic fixes those issues SNB is the only counter... which is why you see it all over the place. Truest me kill stacking and add a short SNB immunity to make 5 man sci teams a bit less attractive and the game would change, a full strip SNB would not be over powered if people rolled their buffs.

When I play my sci its hillarious seeing escorts screaming at me head on with 15 buffs running... WOOPS your dead. When I play my tac and I know there are scis around I go into roll mode. I never fire off everything I have in one volley... I roll it and mostly live through a sub noob, because I have buffs in reserve to kill the sub nuker....
Teams of sci yes very annoying.... Thanks
To a Sci Fleet... which is either bugged or Cryptic plain forgot to nerf it when they reduced shield resists which is HILARIOUS
and of course being able to chain SNB to ensure a kill.

The skill is fine... its the chaining thats the issue... my point was after all that if its still not clear. Is simple, stacking of every skill is the issue in this game, not the power of the buff strip.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
08-13-2011, 02:39 PM
Either way, I'm still seeing the same resist stacking optimized teams tearing up PVP. I don't think SNB-less teams will remain competitive while the present environment remains as-is. Sci needs work but things don't operate in a vacuum (space pun?) and altering SNB now would only serve to make resist/heal stacking that much worse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
08-13-2011, 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Ya that old thread got off topic I guess.

I agree with you that there should be a SNB immunity. You should not be able to chain them.

Where I don't agree is that ANY of your buffs should be sacred. The number of sci you see running around is a direct result of Cryptic allowing buffs to stack. Its idiotic and very un MMO.

Tac Skills tack which is dumb.... Engi Skills stack which is dumb... Shield Resist stack to stupid numbers for stupid amounts of time.

Bottom line is until Cryptic fixes those issues SNB is the only counter... which is why you see it all over the place. Truest me kill stacking and add a short SNB immunity to make 5 man sci teams a bit less attractive and the game would change, a full strip SNB would not be over powered if people rolled their buffs.

When I play my sci its hillarious seeing escorts screaming at me head on with 15 buffs running... WOOPS your dead. When I play my tac and I know there are scis around I go into roll mode. I never fire off everything I have in one volley... I roll it and mostly live through a sub noob, because I have buffs in reserve to kill the sub nuker....
Teams of sci yes very annoying.... Thanks
To a Sci Fleet... which is either bugged or Cryptic plain forgot to nerf it when they reduced shield resists which is HILARIOUS
and of course being able to chain SNB to ensure a kill.

The skill is fine... its the chaining thats the issue... my point was after all that if its still not clear. Is simple, stacking of every skill is the issue in this game, not the power of the buff strip.

Sounds like we do agree that SNB stacking is a big problem, and that an SNB immunity timer would go a long way towards fixing it.

However, one issue remains: only the sci-captain can do anything about removing massive defensive buff stacks. Without a sci-captain, matches can degenerate into defensive stalemates. This is why I proposed giving other captains the ability to handle stacked buffs with conditional strings attached, for example, making FoMM a buff remover when the target receives a critical hit by the FoMM-initiator. Changing Engineer Rotate Shield Frequency into a debuff reflector was just another suggestion following this same line of thinking, but you get the idea.

Remember, these are only suggestions, but at the moment, it seems like only Sci-captains can break stacked buff stalemates. Giving other captains access to a vital game mechanic like target buff manipulation seems like the next positive step towards actual game balance.

It's fine to disagree with the above... just please explain why
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
08-13-2011, 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Sounds like we do agree that SNB stacking is a big problem, and that an SNB immunity timer would go a long way towards fixing it.

However, one issue remains: only the sci-captain can do anything about removing massive defensive buff stacks. Without a sci-captain, matches can degenerate into defensive stalemates. This is why I proposed giving other captains the ability to handle stacked buffs with conditional strings attached, for example, making FoMM a buff remover when the target receives a critical hit by the FoMM-initiator. Changing Engineer Rotate Shield Frequency into a debuff reflector was just another suggestion following this same line of thinking, but you get the idea.

Remember, these are only suggestions, but at the moment, it seems like only Sci-captains can break stacked buff stalemates. Giving other captains access to a vital game mechanic like target buff manipulation seems like the next positive step towards actual game balance.

It's fine to disagree with the above... just please explain why
I see where you going... its just more band aid though.

Instead of adding more mini SNBs... they should just fix the real problem.
No Zombie Cruisers... no need to run a 5 SNB team
No One shotting Tacs... no need to run a 5 SNB team
No Super Shield Sci Ships... no need to run a 5 SNB team

I guess we agree on the problem, not the solution. I do hope Cryptic never just band aids it some more... but I'm sure that's exactly what will happen. lol
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
08-13-2011, 03:23 PM
I think FoMM needs to apply it's debuff to shields as well as hull.

I don't think that we need each class to have the same, or even too many similar, skills. We need to keep them different enough to make them all useful.
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