Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 121
08-15-2011, 03:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
1-shot tacs are a myth created by players that have no idea how the countless ways to stay alive work!

I know, cause I've specialized in 1-shotting, and half the players in PvP can't be one-shotted! Because they know, and use, the right tricks to stay alive! Those who can be one shotted will never be saved by SNB, unless the escort pilot is real silly and decloaks right in front of a sci. :p
Still doubt they would even come close to firing snb unless linked to the space bar. We also know most decloaks are from behind and above. So they will never see it coming!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 122
08-15-2011, 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
1-shot tacs are a myth created by players that have no idea how the countless ways to stay alive work!

I know, cause I've specialized in 1-shotting, and half the players in PvP can't be one-shotted! Because they know, and use, the right tricks to stay alive! Those who can be one shotted will never be saved by SNB, unless the escort pilot is real silly and decloaks right in front of a sci. :p
Perhaps, but nothing above changes stacked buffs from creating zombie cruisers, sci shield tanks, and any number of existing or future uber-builds that cannot be taken down without SNB. The present environment creates an artificial demand for the sci-captain in team play because no other class can presently remove target buffs. Since buff stacking is so pervasive in STO PVP, it doesn't make sense to keep the buff removal mechanic an exclusive sci-captain power.

Some captain-only abilities already overlap (e.g., FoMM vs. Sensor Scan -- both apply a resist debuff on the target), so granting some buff-removal between all captain classes would follow existing ability guidelines.

I'm making these suggestions without any favoritism towards any one class. Even if these changes never make it to Holodeck, I would still love to see the Devs test the idea on Tribble and get everyone's feedback, not just the posters here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 123
08-15-2011, 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Just got back from a C&H hold game that degenerated into a turkey-shoot because of chain-SNB, mine spam, and fighter spam. The opposing sci team / tac team even proceeded to completely clear our starbase of ALL turrets. Each sci-player brought in photonic fleet with their MVAMs... as you can tell, this added up to a lot of targetting issues. Everyone on my team could usually mount a defense until the chain SNB's started coming in. Typically our opponents attacked with Target Subsystem Engines, SNB, Photonic Fleet, Scorpion Fighters, and Mines. I usually Sci-Team the first SNB away, but then another one comes in and secures a lock-down now that my skills are on CD. After that, it was over.

I don't mind a zombie cruiser tanking my attacks because they are not putting out significant DPS while their main system power is diverted towards shields and other defenses. However, SNB has absolutely no penalty towards the sci captain using it.

Since there are many here that oppose any change to SNB, I have a counter-proposal: Cryptic could improve Fire On My Mark and Rotate Shield Frequencies with some skill modifying or removal properties. For example, FOMM could be made to remove a random buff every times a critical hit lands on the target (this could be limited to only BO abilities if a global version proves itself too good). Rotate Shield Frequencies could be made to occasionally reflect debuffs back to their senders. The latter would bring other captain-only skills on-par with SNB without any nerfs involved.

Thoughts and comments are welcome.
My thoughts are the opposing team took out your turrets the hard way. All they had to do shoot scramble sensors at em. Silly noobs :-p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 124
08-15-2011, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlaffargue
My thoughts are the opposing team took out your turrets the hard way. All they had to do shoot scramble sensors at em. Silly noobs :-p
Scramble Sensors, Photonic Fleets, Mine Spam, and Scorpion Fighter spam were enough...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 125
08-15-2011, 05:00 AM
A recap seems unnecessary since the suggestions weren't all that great the first time around. The different classes exist to play different roles. We can alter quite a few things as it is just by mixing up our ships or bridge officer layout but we don't need to dilute the classes too much by making captain skills more vanilla.

People want to be able to do the best of everything by themselves (even Kirk had buddies) but it's an MMO, a team based game, where you should have to make choices that force you to rely on other people to play their part. You can make a pretty balanced build but you should not be able to make the end all be all, one man team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 126
08-15-2011, 08:31 AM
The biggest problem with SNB is that it hits too hard. Especially if you don't have a sci team available to you. (=sux 10x as much for pugs!)

I think that the following would be nice:
- New-SNB clears all buffs brom target
- New-SNB does not give increased CDs
- When hit by New-SNB, you're granted a 15 second SNB immunity
- To compensate for the lost, cooldown on New-SNB is 45 second.

Less annoying, less spammable, and still a great skill! right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 127
08-15-2011, 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
A recap seems unnecessary since the suggestions weren't all that great the first time around. The different classes exist to play different roles. We can alter quite a few things as it is just by mixing up our ships or bridge officer layout but we don't need to dilute the classes too much by making captain skills more vanilla.
Cross-profession functions are already present, especially in a game with only 3 total classes and access to any ship + bridge officer class. Captain build point allocations still allow captains to use their captain-only skills more effectively than other professions, hence defining their specializations. However, many have repeatedly argued that SNB is vital to the game to break buff-stack deadlocks. This is why I asked that buff-removal mechanic be distributed in a limited form to both tactical and engineer captains... not the entire SNB skill, just the mechanic. SNB should still remain the king of buff-removal, but high buff stacks should not remain unbreakable without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
People want to be able to do the best of everything by themselves (even Kirk had buddies) but it's an MMO, a team based game, where you should have to make choices that force you to rely on other people to play their part. You can make a pretty balanced build but you should not be able to make the end all be all, one man team.
Perhaps, but when a single skill like SNB creates dependence on a single class and elevates that class above all others, then in the absence of favoritism, reasonable observers have to start questioning why. Other MMO's like Blizzard's WoW figured this out when entire 25+ man instance raids could not proceed because no one brought a lock-picking rogue. How silly does the latter scenario sound? STO's present PVP environment retains this same design issue by having buff removal monopolized by only one captain profession. No one else except for the sci-captain can break a large buff-stack grid lock.

If buff-removal distribution isn't allowed, then Cryptic could just nerf SNB into oblivion, but I've already voiced my objection against this. Either way, the present environment will change and evolve given the sheer amount of forum chatter SNB alone has created. The more we talk about it, the more likely the devs will review its present game mechanics and play impact.

I look forward to more posts... :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 128
08-15-2011, 12:09 PM
I've been playing a sci toon for a long time and honestly most of the sci powers are in a long overdue for a change. It's evident enough how overpowered they were in the past. Remember the old days of viral matrix and the old SNB? That was extremely stupid. So it's no surprise that most of the other powers are due for a nerf. Let's be honest with ourselves here. Science has been and always has been the flavor of the year career. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf to SNB, Science Fleet and Scramble Sensors. There are alot others as well that need a change.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 129
08-15-2011, 12:33 PM
The dependence on SNB is a balancing issue for sure. I wouldn't be against seeing some kind of short resistance (5-10 seconds) between uses. I'd also rather that Science Team gave a 5 second immunity (similar to Tactical Team's 10 seconds - which needs to be reduced anyway). It could be solved by giving everyone something like SNB but then that would just be lazy and unimaginative. It would also be a balance nightmare. That doesn't mean SNB is over powered, it means that healing and resistance needs work.

The problem is that there is too much of a gap between a ship when it's unbuffed and when it's fully buffed. A while ago they tried to adjust shield resistance and went a little more in the direction of having your innate shield power level be more important to your resistance than using Bridge Offer Skills. I think it sounded like a good move but it wasn't quite far enough.

Engineer Cruisers have a tanky healer build that no other captain class can touch. Giving them something to remove their opponents buffs (or as you suggested, a kind of FBP effect tied into their incredible resistance abilities) would leave very little reason to use anything else. In just this example, Cruisers don't need that kind of a boost. Once that is addressed, SNB becomes less of an issue.

FoMM needs to be improved to apply it's debuff to shields along with hull. That change would be something along the lines of what you are suggesting because while it doesn't completely remove buffs it does still reduce the impact of those buffs. FoMM has already taken a major blow anyway just because of the 10 second debuff removal of Tactical Team. If Science Team gave a 10 second immunity to Sci debuffs like SNB that would be broken but still Tac Team goes on as it is...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 130
08-15-2011, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
The dependence on SNB is a balancing issue for sure. I wouldn't be against seeing some kind of short resistance (5-10 seconds) between uses. I'd also rather that Science Team gave a 5 second immunity (similar to Tactical Team's 10 seconds - which needs to be reduced anyway). It could be solved by giving everyone something like SNB but then that would just be lazy and unimaginative. It would also be a balance nightmare. That doesn't mean SNB is over powered, it means that healing and resistance needs work.
Resists and healing tune-ups have been done and redone. Yet we are still at the present situation. At some point, we have to realize that flogging the players to increase morale doesn't work.

Furthermore, the "lazy and unimaginative" comment makes no sense -- Buff-removal distribution is quite radical by STO standards since it has never been previously done. Universal buff-removal access alleviates dependence on any single class and reduces all present and future buff-stacking monstrosities. Your conclusion about distributed buff-removal being a "balance nightmare" makes no sense when 1) The proposal gives every class access to buff-removal, so on one class is favored 2) No tests have been done to determine its viability or lack thereof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
The problem is that there is too much of a gap between a ship when it's unbuffed and when it's fully buffed. A while ago they tried to adjust shield resistance and went a little more in the direction of having your innate shield power level be more important to your resistance than using Bridge Offer Skills. I think it sounded like a good move but it wasn't quite far enough.

Engineer Cruisers have a tanky healer build that no other captain class can touch. Giving them something to remove their opponents buffs (or as you suggested, a kind of FBP effect tied into their incredible resistance abilities) would leave very little reason to use anything else. In just this example, Cruisers don't need that kind of a boost. Once that is addressed, SNB becomes less of an issue.
Here is a counter-argument: The reason there is such a gap between buffed vs. unbuffed ships is because it is very easy to stack buffs, but it is very difficult to remove them from opponents. If everyone had access to the buff-removal mechanic, then space combat becomes a game of intelligent move and counter-move as opposed to who can stack the highest buffs. Players would have be more cautious about stacking buffs when the threat of debuffing can come from anyone, not just the Sci-captain.

The above will make STO more "canon-esque" when you can counter the opposing player's abilities instead of just "emergency power to shields!" when the weapons start shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
FoMM needs to be improved to apply it's debuff to shields along with hull. That change would be something along the lines of what you are suggesting because while it doesn't completely remove buffs it does still reduce the impact of those buffs. FoMM has already taken a major blow anyway just because of the 10 second debuff removal of Tactical Team. If Science Team gave a 10 second immunity to Sci debuffs like SNB that would be broken but still Tac Team goes on as it is...
True, but none of the above corrects the universal problem of massive buff-stacks being resolvable only by the sci-captain.

We might be trying to address two separate issues here. I'm focusing on the long-term game, which is why I suggested these being tested on Tribble before any conclusions are made.
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