Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
08-09-2011, 12:58 AM
Actually it should be remade to apply a Damage buffer on the target.

With every shot fire upon a snb'ed target, extra damage gets applied fro m that buffer to the attack.
That includes Weapons fire of any kind and abilities that deal some form of damage.

The buffer needs to be substantial and apply its buffs in sizeable chunks.

Extra damage is subject to normal buff/debuff mechanics in play. Patterns will increase it etc.



That would be good.

It adds something tp sci that is combinable with all kinds of stuff and does not utterly break the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
08-09-2011, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
But these buffs are than responsible for a fully buffed Escort hardly making a dent in the target's shield. The damage buffs have already run out by the time the enemy cycles his next heal to negate it all.

That's why we need SNB.

SNB is not problematic. The problem is the dependence we have on buffs for damage and on buffs for resistance/heals. If buffs were less relevant, SNB wouldn't be as powerful. Buffs being as strong as they are, SNB is important, because it's the only way to get somethng killed.

SNB is the equalizer.
no. that is idiocy.

We do not "need snb". And its not an equalizer its a dominator.

What we "need" is a proper balance between:

Damage dealing.
Damage Mitigation
And ultimately damage negation via healing.


Fact:

Escort DPS especially and team dps in general is way over the top, considering the amount of base hp we have.
Chewing through a 50k cruisers hull? A Few seconds work. The shields disintegrate almost instantly. Basic shield transfer doesnt even come close to being useful. (i guess thats why they made tac team do it).


Thats where buffs come into play that will negate all that. totally. So you have totally over the top dps on unbuffed targets that gets totally negated on buffed ones.

THAT
IS
RETARDED.

The solution is not "Oh yes, lets make ONE power on ONE class that totally negates all those buffs and sends the whole ship into cooldown hell!".

The solution is to go back to the ships base stats. tone down firepower on escorts, bring up firepower on the other ships. Bring up the hp of everyone and then redo the buffs completely.

Instead of being instant gratification, work with hots.
Work with medium to long term buffs instead of uber powerful short term buffs.

Work with global mechanics that punish focus fire. Rework chosen powers to be AOE based ball-up deterrants. Fed ball balling up again? Yeah throw a spread of torpedoes that do more damage per hit per enemy in range of the effect.
Or a gravity well that scales similarly.
Or warp plasma.



Give all classes the same basic tools: all classes need a form of damage buff, a spike damage buff, mitigation buffs, and healing over time.




The fights should be drawn out over time some more, to give the base stats of the ship a chance to make a difference.

Make sure that healing gets less effective over time by applying a healing debuff and simulating attrition.
Make DPS buffs suffer the same principle, the same for Mitigation.




Theres is lots that is needed for this game, but a power that utterly negates all others is NOT IT.
Its a cheap cop out.

Its especially vexing to read people saying "yeah WE NEED THAT BECAUSE XYZ" instead of "Fix XYZ So we can get rid of this shiite.". It becomes even more stupid if you consider the fact that your all so needed buff is only available to ONE CLASS.




Everything i said is basically proven by t2 pvp, which was remarkable fun when there still was some to be had.
Players have only few tools available at that stage, damage was not utterly overinflated for one ship class and the ships base stats actually got a chance to make an impact.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
08-09-2011, 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
The problem is that buffs are the only thing keeping ships form instantly exploding when looked at by escorts.
Being able to remove ALL buffs from a target with one click is rather stupid in that environment.

...<SNIP>...
The above statement says it best from a game balance perspective. Even if the SNB can be removed quickly, its initial mass-removal effect is already disproportionate for a single captain-only ability when compared to other captain-only profession skills.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
But these buffs are than responsible for a fully buffed Escort hardly making a dent in the target's shield. The damage buffs have already run out by the time the enemy cycles his next heal to negate it all.

That's why we need SNB.

SNB is not problematic. The problem is the dependence we have on buffs for damage and on buffs for resistance/heals. If buffs were less relevant, SNB wouldn't be as powerful. Buffs being as strong as they are, SNB is important, because it's the only way to get somethng killed.

SNB is the equalizer.
SNB in its current form is wayyyyy over the top when compared to other captain-only skills like Fire on My Mark and Rotate Shield Frequency. If SNB were changed into a single debuff that temporarily neutralized all other buffs while present, then it would be in-line with other comparable captain-only powers. The net effect would still be the same (ie, neutralizing all other buffs), but now the mass-buff removal can be countered with a single team skill, just like all other captain-only debuffs. When FoMM is neutralized by Tactical Team, then there is no further effect. The same cannot be said for SNB via science team (target buffs are still gone), but by making SNB's buff removal only temporary, then some game balance will be achieved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
Current SNB is a bit much, I'd like it better if it was either:

alternative 1:
- strips all buffs
- prevents new buffs from being applied for 4 seconds

or

alternative 2:
- strips all buffs
- get cooldown reduced to 2/3 of current cd
Here are a few other alternatives:

1) As mentioned above, make SNB a debuff that neutralizes all other previously active buffs while present, but restores them to their original durations (minus elapsed time) once removed. All other cooldown extensions remain unchanged.

2) make Science Team a 10-second buff that grants temporary immunity to all debuffs that sci-team currently removes (this will bring Science Team in-line with Tactical Team).

3) make SNB a combination resist AND heal debuff that lowers target healing to a small fraction of normal amount while present (perhaps 15% to 25% -- exact value would have to be determined by dev's for proper game balance), with diminishing returns if multiple SNB's are stacked

4) Unlink sci, tac, and engineering team shared cooldowns. This will make SNB less formidable if sci-team can be saved for it, but there are other implications involved.

Other options are possible, but SNB can still overcome stacked defense / heal buffs without mass-removal if coded properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
...<SNIP>...

Theres is lots that is needed for this game, but a power that utterly negates all others is NOT IT.
Its a cheap cop out.

...<SNIP>...
Agreed here. SNB's mass buff removal shows a lack of imagination and discretion on the dev's part.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
08-09-2011, 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
SNB in its current form is wayyyyy over the top when compared to other captain-only skills like Fire on My Mark and Rotate Shield Frequency.
And yet it's needed for the metagame. Without it, we would have invincible Cruiser/Science Vessel teams that bore each other to death.

The underlying issue is the extremes damage and healing/resistance can reach, and the overall strength of healing/resistance compared to damage as well.

In a system with infinite healing like STO, it seems to me that it's unevitable that you must engineer weak spots in the enemies heal rotation and exploit them with strong spikes. (Assuming that healing works at all.)
SNB is pretty much the only way to create such a weak spot against a healing-focused ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
08-09-2011, 02:11 AM
Another reason as to why SNB is particulary devastating for a Tac is that we *have* to stack our buffs to insane heights to be able to touch a welldefended ship, and most times that isnt even enough

RSP negates any alpha
EP2S + RSF + TSS negates any alpha
SciFleet + Extend negates any alpha
TacTeam + EP2S negates any alpha
SNB negates any alpha
Ablative negates any alpha
RI console negates any alpha

Basically, all you have to do is activate 1 or 2 abilities to counter the 6-8 abilities the Tac uses to be able to even touch you. Perhaps if the attacked ship was required to use a similar number of resist buffs to survive an alpha, things would be more even, its not like Engs and Scis cannot have tons and tons of resistance skills on a cruiser or SV
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
08-09-2011, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
And yet it's needed for the metagame. Without it, we would have invincible Cruiser/Science Vessel teams that bore each other to death.

The underlying issue is the extremes damage and healing/resistance can reach, and the overall strength of healing/resistance compared to damage as well.

In a system with infinite healing like STO, it seems to me that it's unevitable that you must engineer weak spots in the enemies heal rotation and exploit them with strong spikes. (Assuming that healing works at all.)
SNB is pretty much the only way to create such a weak spot against a healing-focused ship.

1.) it already is sci dominant.
2.) Not nice to utterly ignore hte root of the problem.


FIX the meta game. Do not defend broken mechanics.

Again your metagame argument is sadly ignoring the fact that your oh so needed power is only available to one class. And it happens to trump those classes ability 100%.
Its not a fix, its part of the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Another reason as to why SNB is particulary devastating for a Tac is that we *have* to stack our buffs to insane heights to be able to touch a welldefended ship, and most times that isnt even enough

RSP negates any alpha
EP2S + RSF + TSS negates any alpha
SciFleet + Extend negates any alpha
TacTeam + EP2S negates any alpha
SNB negates any alpha
Ablative negates any alpha
RI console negates any alpha

Basically, all you have to do is activate 1 or 2 abilities to counter the 6-8 abilities the Tac uses to be able to even touch you. Perhaps if the attacked ship was required to use a similar number of resist buffs to survive an alpha, things would be more even, its not like Engs and Scis cannot have tons and tons of resistance skills on a cruiser or SV
another reason why the space battles needs thorough rework.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
08-09-2011, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marctraider View Post
That cant be right, what skill is more OP then the skill that kills all others?
which can be cleared with science team of any level.


every skill has a counter, a few even have preemtive counters....


and one thing i dont understand

why the hell do people complain that the cooldowns go so fracking high!? the most the recharge ever actually gets delayed by is 30 seconds! sure the timer says 2-8 mins but once snb is gone it goes back to the time it was at before the snb hit you.

so its only ever 30 seconds of extra down time for a skill. EVER!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
08-09-2011, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
1.) it already is sci dominant.
2.) Not nice to utterly ignore hte root of the problem.


FIX the meta game. Do not defend broken mechanics.

Again your metagame argument is sadly ignoring the fact that your oh so needed power is only available to one class. And it happens to trump those classes ability 100%.
Its not a fix, its part of the problem.
The thing is, once you fix the rest of the game, SNB would be fine. Because people are not as dependent on their heal/resistance and damage powers, losing them is not even nearly as devestating as now. And removing all those buffs is not nearly as important asit is now.

So there is just nothing to do with SNB. Change the stuff around it, and it will fall in place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
08-09-2011, 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The thing is, once you fix the rest of the game, SNB would be fine. Because people are not as dependent on their heal/resistance and damage powers, losing them is not even nearly as devestating as now. And removing all those buffs is not nearly as important asit is now.

So there is just nothing to do with SNB. Change the stuff around it, and it will fall in place.
what i'm saying all the time basically. fix the whole game. not just one tiny part.

And then yo ucan even go make snb a way cooler ability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
08-09-2011, 04:30 AM
I did a tongue in cheek post as I thought people where being tongue in cheek about SNB being OP

As Mai Kai says it can be countered by a level 1 sci skill, Sci Team with only a 30 sec !!! cool down, which you or certainly someone in your team should have, if your pugging and you find SNB that much of a problem surely you would carry a copy anyway !

When your SNBed without Sci team or on a team without sci team ( ), others can add to your heals an extend , TSS2 or 3, etc or RUN , evasive , duetrium , omega and eptengines etc.

This is a team game and in team context SNB is a useful power but not op.

Team game Coordinate to heal , Coordinate to kill

Decent Tac Escort/Raptor/Bop with APA and attack buffs is most dangerous thing at present look at all the top guys using them ! .
This has got me loading RSP on all ships when Pugging because you don't have time for any other counters , a good tac escort type can kill you on it's own again now through a quick attack.

Indeed as escorts are little more tanky now, with a decent build even if they don't get an quick kill they can just follow an heal eng cruiser or sci sci around and wear it down as the heal cruiser and the sci boat have insufficent dps to kill it or drive it off.
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