Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
08-18-2011, 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ID
And about the balance issues, those that spend extra money and time in their sport or hobby, are usually better equipped on the field. Any one that has played PVP or a played a competitive sport knows that more time and money invested, usually produces more of an advantage and better results. Instead of buying a New york strip for dinner, I'm buying a ship that will last me longer then 30 minutes.
1)
Cryptic promised that the C-Store items would be for cosmetic effects, vanity items and services.
If they put out ships like a Tier 2.5 Nova Console, they are breaking that promise, and they are breaking the reason many people have even supported this game and accepted the C-Store in the first place.

Breaking that promise means I cannot trust Cryptic and the STO team anymore that they will hold up to other promises. If they now sell Pay-To-Win ships, maybe the next thing we'll see is missions in the C-Store? Why not? They promsised that would not happen, but they also promised that there wouldn't be gameplay changing items in the C-Store either.
Or maybe just some kind of "mission token" that you can also earn in game if you grind long enough - or just buy it on the C-Store.

2)
Just because you can buy advantages in other sports doesn't mean I want in this game. The comparison also falls flat because I have to buy every type of equipment in sports with real money, even the weak one. But in Startrek Online, I pay for stuff that can make me better and more effective with in-game resources.
Cryptic Tokens are an out-game resource. Do we have something like this in real life? I don't think so, but maybe an overdramatized analogy would be selling your soul to the devil for a better backhand for your tennis career.

3)
Putting Pay-To-Win items in the C-Store means that PvP is no longer an activity you can do in this game with your subscription alone. That means it devalues the subscription money I paid and the lifetime subscription I bought. Because suddenly, PvP isn't really anymore in that subscription, or at least only a very limited form of it is - because I can't hope to compete with the best players no matter how much I train, as they will simply have better ships than me.

4)
Even if we ignore all the above, the ship is not balanced for its tier. It is quite simply too strong for the type of opposition you will face. That means it makes PvE even less challenging, and more pointless, than it already is too many of us. It is also a "trap" of some sorts.
  • You can't keep using it anyway. So if you really bought it for the beauty of the ship, you'll have t drop it later in the game anyway.
  • Once you move to a Tier 3 ship, you actually suddenly are put in a situation where you have a Bridge Officer Power you have trained the last tier and can't use, because there is no appropriate slot for it.
So you're screwed over in two ways if you acquire the ship.


5)
The ship breaks the design of the game. The ship tiers in this game were designed with a certain number of BO slots and ranks in mind, which were all supposed to be "equal" overall in balance. This ship breaks the rule. Breaking your game design needs a good reason, and I don't see any, other than to make more money on the C-Store. And that's not game design, that's just satisfying some bean counters.
If they wanted the ship to be interesting without overpowered, there would be ways to do it - change the Science Ensign to a Tactical or Engineering Ensign, for example.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
08-19-2011, 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
...
Secondly, and perhaps even more importantly, is that such a philosophy may result in an arms race in that those who want to stay competitive have to buy better and better equipment for real money. Not only would this widen the gap between players even more, it would also force people to fly a ship that they perhaps do not even want just because it's superior.
...
Perhaps my "style over substance" mentality is a bit misplaced in PvP, but I would find it sad if my Klingon would get forced out of it entirely just because I no longer have a chance with a ship that I favour but which isn't the "flavor of the month" and not the current peak in terms of advantages. That damn nerfed B'rel is hard enough to keep from breaking apart as it is. :p

As for the Refit Nova's tier - T3 and T5 already being "occupied" by the Nebula is a good point. Personally, I would also be satisfied with a T4 Rhode Island.
I have, so far, managed to keep from 'flying a ship that I do not want even though it is superior' all the way up to VA on my Tac.
She's still flying in a Nova.

I'm a 'form over function' type of person as well. I don't like to use stuff I don't like the looks of.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
08-19-2011, 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
1)
Cryptic promised that the C-Store items would be for cosmetic effects, vanity items and services.
If they put out ships like a Tier 2.5 Nova Console, they are breaking that promise, and they are breaking the reason many people have even supported this game and accepted the C-Store in the first place.

Breaking that promise means I cannot trust Cryptic and the STO team anymore that they will hold up to other promises. If they now sell Pay-To-Win ships, maybe the next thing we'll see is missions in the C-Store? Why not? They promsised that would not happen, but they also promised that there wouldn't be gameplay changing items in the C-Store either.
Or maybe just some kind of "mission token" that you can also earn in game if you grind long enough - or just buy it on the C-Store.

2)
Just because you can buy advantages in other sports doesn't mean I want in this game. The comparison also falls flat because I have to buy every type of equipment in sports with real money, even the weak one. But in Startrek Online, I pay for stuff that can make me better and more effective with in-game resources.
Cryptic Tokens are an out-game resource. Do we have something like this in real life? I don't think so, but maybe an overdramatized analogy would be selling your soul to the devil for a better backhand for your tennis career.

3)
Putting Pay-To-Win items in the C-Store means that PvP is no longer an activity you can do in this game with your subscription alone. That means it devalues the subscription money I paid and the lifetime subscription I bought. Because suddenly, PvP isn't really anymore in that subscription, or at least only a very limited form of it is - because I can't hope to compete with the best players no matter how much I train, as they will simply have better ships than me.

4)
Even if we ignore all the above, the ship is not balanced for its tier. It is quite simply too strong for the type of opposition you will face. That means it makes PvE even less challenging, and more pointless, than it already is too many of us. It is also a "trap" of some sorts.
  • You can't keep using it anyway. So if you really bought it for the beauty of the ship, you'll have t drop it later in the game anyway.
  • Once you move to a Tier 3 ship, you actually suddenly are put in a situation where you have a Bridge Officer Power you have trained the last tier and can't use, because there is no appropriate slot for it.
So you're screwed over in two ways if you acquire the ship.


5)
The ship breaks the design of the game. The ship tiers in this game were designed with a certain number of BO slots and ranks in mind, which were all supposed to be "equal" overall in balance. This ship breaks the rule. Breaking your game design needs a good reason, and I don't see any, other than to make more money on the C-Store. And that's not game design, that's just satisfying some bean counters.
If they wanted the ship to be interesting without overpowered, there would be ways to do it - change the Science Ensign to a Tactical or Engineering Ensign, for example.
I read all of that.

You actually made me weep. I have to counterblast just to put some persepective into this thread.

Tier 2 PvP. Think about it. Nothing you put in is gonna break the game cos nobody plays T2 PvP on Holodeck, or if they do then they do not for long cos its boring cos there is no counter to cloaks at that level.


I am not gonna pay a premium for things that dont give me an edge in the game. Right now the c-store is 90% junk and that needs to change.

The RI is a small step along the way to a healthy C-Store. More please.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
08-19-2011, 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
I have, so far, managed to keep from 'flying a ship that I do not want even though it is superior' all the way up to VA on my Tac.
She's still flying in a Nova.

I'm a 'form over function' type of person as well. I don't like to use stuff I don't like the looks of.
Kudos to that!

My Fed Sci kept her Nova until halfway between Cpt and RAdm, then I just couldn't resist anymore. Fortunately, the game allows you to "skip" entire tiers of ship classes that one does not like as much. That said, I think endgame PvP with anything below a T5 ship is just not possible - unless the other team really isn't very good or one is content with potentially being the cause for the own side loosing, or at least being called out for it if that happens.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
08-19-2011, 08:33 AM
Is the variant supposed to be delayed further? I thought it would have gone up with the patch but it isnt in the C-Store yet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
08-19-2011, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Kudos to that!

My Fed Sci kept her Nova until halfway between Cpt and RAdm, then I just couldn't resist anymore. Fortunately, the game allows you to "skip" entire tiers of ship classes that one does not like as much. That said, I think endgame PvP with anything below a T5 ship is just not possible - unless the other team really isn't very good or one is content with potentially being the cause for the own side loosing, or at least being called out for it if that happens.
Yeah, I've actually PvP'd a little with her.

Some SSR pvp matches, and a couple 1v1 with someone from the STORP channel.

He was flying an excelsior the first time. did a 5 kills, I didn't get a single kill.
But I could manage to survive for a bit of time. Apparently I got him down to 89% hull at one point but I didn't notice while trying to stay alive.

Did another vs him in a MVAM Promethius. Didn't do a full match, but he still killed me every time he was actually there trying. He did leave at one point and left his weapons on auto fire to see if I could kill him, which I did that time... >.>

Though he did mention he'd hate to fight me in a ship of the proper tier ^_^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
08-19-2011, 09:05 AM
Well to counter a few comments to my initial post...I hope we are all in agreement with the other topics I mentioned about us being luck we're getting as much as we are...cause I've been in MMO's where there's a minor item added every 6 months.

We need to remember Cryptic is a business not our personal trainer that is trying to charge an arm and a leg from us. Their job is to provide content, and make a profit. If they don't make a profit then the company goes bankrupt and we possibly might lose STO. Subscriptions are fine as a means of support for an MMO that doesn't put out a lot of content. What about other games like WOW that have expansions you buy so you can even access another part of the world. Those kinds of things seem more force-to-pay to me then an optional C-Store.

What if Cryptic started making sector blocks or the episodes, pay-to play like one person put it. Or what if you have to buy maps or access to a new sector block, as that person also mentioned. I understand your arguments, all of you, and I respect your opinions, I may not have worded my initial post the most effective way possible.

The point I am making is: We are getting too upset over something too minute. We need to remember we're fortunate compared to other MMO's. There is nothing in the C-Store that is unconter able or impossible to defeat. I know people that fly Sovereigns and Lunas and kick everyone's rear including those with special ships with special abilities. The ships in the C-Store that give some console or innate ability are balanced and counter able by normal ships that come with the game.



This phobia that new ships with powers that will unbalance everything is senseless and flat out untrue.

I repeat: There is NO ship in this game that has an advantage great enough to make the pilot superior to the rest of the players. There is always a boff station or console slot handicap that keeps that ship from becoming OP!

Examples: Retro-Defiant does not have battle cloak nore does the Dreadnaught
Retro-Intrepid's ablative armor is nothing more then a short RSP3 and takes a long time to recharge. Plus some abilities and energy weapons cannot be fired while the armor is active.
Retro-Galaxy's saucer is crap, the Stardrive is fast like an escort but can easily be taken out just like an escort if focused upon.
MVAM Adv. Escort's vectos are always weaker then the ship as a whole. It's NPC vectors dont use the same weapons your vector does. It has a ltcdr sci but not a ltcdr tac as well. Its just a sci version of the Adv Escort.
Excelsior has a itcdr tac but lacks a ltcdr eng so it hits harder but doesn't heal as well as a sovereign or retro-galaxy.
Nebula doesn't have the full sci ship boff stations, you give a little to get a little with this ship.

The truth is, that many of us that have the C-Ships have them because we want them, not cause they are better then the default ships. The real OP factor here is these sets, like Aegis and Borg that you either have to be a crafter or have money, or have a group good enough to do every borg stf. Thoes kits give abilities that make ships much more powerful and resilient then any of the C-Ships. I think we can all agree on that.

Almost forgot: When I played football in HS, and Hockey on the side. I always wanted the best gear. So I upgraded, especially if there was an item like a chest protector that was safter then the one I already had. I also broke hockey sticks so I had to buy new ones, I had to have my skates sharpened which cost money, not that much though.

Also about "promises" that Cryptic made/makes: Some were under a dif EP, and some are changed for various reason. I was promised I could be Special Forces by my recruiter when I joined the Army...I ended up as a standard infantry rifleman. Nothing special or exciting. Should I have sued the govt? Maybe you could sue Cryptic for not upholding to unofficial contract bound and signed promises, none of which were made with any of us. In business, promises get broken all the time. Your promised a job for 5 years and you get laid off after 2 years...that something to be upset about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
08-19-2011, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ID
I repeat: There is NO ship in this game that has an advantage great enough to make the pilot superior to the rest of the players. There is always a boff station or console slot handicap that keeps that ship from becoming OP!
The proposed setup for the RI has no drawback and an additional Boff power and an additional console slot compared to other T2 vessels.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
08-19-2011, 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashur1
The proposed setup for the RI has no drawback and an additional Boff power and an additional console slot compared to other T2 vessels.
Well you're right about that, but this ship is too low tier for it to really matter. No one PVP's at this level, they are too busy trying to reach the next level. And if they feel the ship gives them an unfair advantage, they can just buy the RI costume and not the actual ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
08-19-2011, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ID
Well you're right about that, but this ship is too low tier for it to really matter. No one PVP's at this level, they are too busy trying to reach the next level. And if they feel the ship gives them an unfair advantage, they can just buy the RI costume and not the actual ship.
You canīt buy them separately. And they already said more ships in line with the RI will be made. It would be naive to think they will stop before T5...
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