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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
08-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
The strategy of where to place the skill *is* the negative takeaway. You may get the benefits in the short term, but if you decide to upgrade tiers, you sacrifice the skillpoints in the tac/eng areas, because they are Lt stations.

.
Only until you get the 3.5 ship. Then your skill points are well invested again...

Well, actually it's still the best argument for drawback I have read. Sadly it didn't come from the people designing the ship.
Of course with two Lt science powers you have to spread out your limited skill points over 2 powers instead of one.
And here I think dStahls argument that the extra power is debatable might have some merit... a little bit.
What is more effective?
Two science powers running with a skill level of 4?
or one science power skilled to 8/9?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
08-21-2011, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timelord_Victorious
Only until you get the 3.5 ship. Then your skill points are well invested again...

Well, actually it's still the best argument for drawback I have read. Sadly it didn't come from the people designing the ship.
Of course with two Lt science powers you have to spread out your limited skill points over 2 powers instead of one.
And here I think dStahls argument that the extra power is debatable might have some merit... a little bit.
What is more effective?
Two science powers running with a skill level of 4?
or one science power skilled to 8/9?
I agree 100% with what you said, which is one of the reasons why I think the RI refit is setting a horrible C-Store precedent while this game is totally pay 2 play.

It's also why I'm disappointed with DStahl's explanations, too. they could have been far more specific in this regard, instead of merely damage control.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
08-21-2011, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkphenoix
This, it is definitely overpowered for it's tier. It may be a rude awakening for some people, but PvP happens at all tiers (not as often as at tier 5, but it does), and the RI is significantly more powerful than other ships of it's tier thanks to the extra LT science BO slot. It's not an insurmountable advantage, but it is definitely far too much of one.

For a tier 5 comparison, It's like giving a fleet escort "refit" an extra Commander BO slot, giving them the ability to stack 2 copies of AP: O III or access to CSV and CRF III, AP: B and AP: D III...

Or how about a Star Cruiser "refit" getting access to another copy of DEM III, A2S III or RSP III...

This is exactly what is happening with the RI, and if you can't see how that isn't overpowered then... well I can't express my opinion without earning an infraction.
Thank you.

I was going to post something rash and crude, but honestly I don't feel like getting my ban wagon trip due to people that have no concept of game mechanics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
08-21-2011, 01:48 PM
Seriously dude, did cryptic pay you for posting this thread?


it is pay 2 win. Seconded by that only Science get new toys, again. They are already the most dominant profession in the game. Now they just got themselves another new toy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
08-21-2011, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marctraider View Post
Seriously dude, did cryptic pay you for posting this thread?


it is pay 2 win. Seconded by that only Science get new toys, again. They are already the most dominant profession in the game. Now they just got themselves another new toy.
Please see my post regarding this matter. I think you may still disagree, but I think it has a ring of truth to it, at least until we see what the tier 3.5 looks like.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
08-21-2011, 01:52 PM
Who cares, Its does not affect anything at all apart from PVE at low levels.

You know the STO forums people have to cry over something, I remember the nerd rage over the Nebular class.
All be forgotten in a week.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
08-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
It has the potential to be, but after a lot of analyzing, I realized that the drawback is at the Lt.Cmdr.level. Where are you more apt to spend your skill points? On a Lt Sci skill you can't utilize again until you're a captain, or on a tec/eng skill you will very well may use at Cmdr? Cooldowns on a skill that has a skillpoint of 1 is more than double the cooldown time of a skill that's trained to 9.

Unfortunately, all intital analyses and assessments of the ship were done by VA's with Boff who skills are maxed.

The strategy of where to place the skill *is* the negative takeaway. You may get the benefits in the short term, but if you decide to upgrade tiers, you sacrifice the skillpoints in the tac/eng areas, because they are Lt stations, and you won't see the LT Sci station again until Captain (Tier 4).

That said, I still think it's setting a very bad precedent for the C-Store and how ships with the potential the RI refit has. The NX, TOS, and Oberth only added very minor, non-debateable slight advantages (only very minor).

I was more concerned about the console, quite frankly. Having said *all* of that, I'm still not buying such a useless ship. It should have been able to be obtainable in game, and at a higher tier.
I am currently levelling a toon in that level range, and I know that my skill points are tight. But I think at Lt.Cmdr or a least at Cmdr, you'll have enough points to get a "spare" Bo that you can't use a tier later. And of course, for all we know, the Tier 3.5 Science Vessel will also have a Lt.Science Officer, so it could become a non-issue - if you keep paying.

The bigger issue might be that characters playing their first character don't really know what to do with those powers and will definitely waste skill points. But what if you're a veteran, or get some help from a veteran (say, via the forums)?

But that is overall the problem - the ship is a mix of pay-to-win and a trap for newbies. And it still doesn't give people what they wanted from a Rhode Island Refit - a higher tier vessel so they could keep using it longer or even indefinitely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
08-21-2011, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
It's overpowered in its tier. No one is claiming it can beat up a Tier 5 ship. But there is no regular in-game situation where it has to compete with a Sovereign - it only has to compete with other Tier 2 ships. And there it's better than any other.
Exactly.

.....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
08-21-2011, 01:58 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Community Rules and Policies. ~Stormshade
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
08-21-2011, 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I am currently levelling a toon in that level range, and I know that my skill points are tight. But I think at Lt.Cmdr or a least at Cmdr, you'll have enough points to get a "spare" Bo that you can't use a tier later. And of course, for all we know, the Tier 3.5 Science Vessel will also have a Lt.Science Officer, so it could become a non-issue - if you keep paying.

The bigger issue might be that characters playing their first character don't really know what to do with those powers and will definitely waste skill points. But what if you're a veteran, or get some help from a veteran (say, via the forums)?

But that is overall the problem - the ship is a mix of pay-to-win and a trap for newbies. And it still doesn't give people what they wanted from a Rhode Island Refit - a higher tier vessel so they could keep using it longer or even indefinitely.
It's why I disagree with how they are rolling these ships out. It sets an ugly precedent, and a potential for that extra Lt Sci at tier 3.5, as you said.

For balance, I'm really curious as to what they *are* thinking about at tier 3.5. Actually, for all intents and purposes, the Nebula and Excelsior are kinda 3.5. It wouldn't surprise me if they kept the layouts similar with the new 3.5 tier ships. What's got me miffed is that you can't get this more advantageous ship in game like you can with the Excelsior and Nebula.
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