Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
09-12-2011, 03:43 AM
Nosy vulcan with an affinity for anaglyph butting in.

Most of what we know about Soyuz classes capabilities came from the semi-canon TNG novel Ship of the Line. Indications were given that they were devoid of a lot of creature comforts, had rather less than impressive science capabilities. It had powerful shields and weapons, but rather than tractor beams it used tow clamps.

It was apparently the Police Cruiser of the fleet. It even ahd yellow and red flashing lights.

Less of a gentle hand of diplomacy, and described as more of a 'knotted fist.'

A refit/retrofit might not really have much point. Considering its capabilities, aside from a lack of science capacities, are not unlike that of the NX class starship.

Now, some tasty ship parts for 240 cpoints... I might get into that. Some nice extra options for Tier 1 would be quite nice, as some of the designs are a tad lackluster.

Perhaps modern ship design like the Odyssey class applied to the same size and general framework of a Miranda/Shikhaar (Am I spelling that right?) design.

If they had to make it a '+1' ship as the Devs call it... (If I recall correctly.) A power console they could make for it could be something simple, like... The Genesis Torpedo. Sounds perfect, right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
09-12-2011, 04:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SojournerX
No, I assumed that it was a weapon because it looks like a weapon.

Lighten up.
I'm cool, don't worry.
It's probably just that since I don't always have enough time on hand that my responses are somewhat short and as a result sound much grumpier than I want them to sound.
It may look like a weapon by the standard of a WW2 ship, but the real question is this: does it look like a Starfleet weapon?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
09-12-2011, 05:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
I'm thinking quite the opposite. Soyuz Class ships should be more "Escort"-like while the Saratogas should be more "Science"-like,
(Also how I would MOD some SFC2 ships, IE: New Light Cruisers: Miranda, Light Escort Cruisers: Soyuz, New Scout Cruisers: Saratoga)
I'm not sure why any of them should be made an escort of sorts.
In case of the Soyuz they're sensors (I checked the Encyclopedia which was written by Okuda who also designed the Soyuz) and in case of the Saratoga from DS9...well I doubt those are weapons too otherwise they would have probably used them.

So here'd be my proposal:
Make the Saratoga a T1 Science Ship very similar to the Miranda.
And the Soyuz (if she has to be in even though the class was retired before the Star Trek 6 era) T2 Science, possibly with a special jammer as console ability reflecting the function of those directed sensor arrays.

As far as SFC is concerned I'd like to make a short detour off the topic for a second:
SFC is a computer game based on Star Fleet Battles, a tabletop game created in the 1970's (License held by "Amarillo Design Burau") solely based on TOS, TAS and the Star Fleet Technical Manual.
The game is basically TOS and has its own timeline with the "General War", averted in canon Trek, breaking out many years after "Errand of Mercy".
Which is what you play out in those computer games too.
The tabletop and all other games based in that particular universe do not carry the name Star Trek in them even though the ships are clearly and obviously originating in the Star Trek universe, as well as the most prominent of its races.
Interplay could use the Star Trek name in combination with the game because they had the license for both.
However ships like the "New Light Cruiser" are not actually Mirandas (explaining their completely different weapons setups) but actually look like this:

http://store.starfleetstore.com/merc...tegory_Code=FM

while the Dreadnought for example is the old Federation class with three nacelles which explains why the standard DN has 50% more warp power than the CA while the DD has half the warp power of the basic CA.
Since the game was based on TOS where it appeared like the power was generated in the nacelles; more nacelles mean more power in the game.
(Before you ask: in SFB the DD only has one nacelle)
This also explains some oddities in the SFC1 manual where the "New Heavy Cruiser" was mentioned to be an NCL with a small third nacelle attached to it even though that made no sense in the game:
This was simply copied over from SFB without proof-reading it.

http://store.starfleetstore.com/merc...tegory_Code=FM

Interplay used the SFB data charts and descriptions and assigned new models to them resulting in players who don't know the origins of the ships associating Trek ships with designations and variants that are actually not actual Trek but from a game based on it that has since then diverged to an incredible degree both in terms of technology and history from the Star Trek we know today.
In fact there is a section in their RPG (called "Prime Directive") where the makers of the game describe how much different their material and history is from canon trek and that section begins with the sentence "This is not Star Trek".

This also explains why there are some strange races in SFC like the Lyrans and Hydrans that you won't find anywhere else.

So long story short, I'd like to point out that trying to somehow connect SFC2 with STO would most likely yield confusing results.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
09-12-2011, 09:02 AM
USS Saratoga NCC-31911 was a variant of a Miranda class, not a cruiser (by your own logic).

The first Saratoga, that we know of anyway, was the standard Miranda. NCC-1887[/quote]

good sir i must ask, did you read the links. first thing to both prefix numbers states that the ship is a miranda class. all you did was support me on this matter and defended the fact that its a miranda class, and nothing else. and if you wanted to you could look up miranda class. you wont find and specs cause to everything this starship was restricted. but you will find what its classed as. and she is no science vessel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SojournerX
Try to keep it together, honey. It's just a game.
o i know thats why im not yelling at anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reanimatedfish
Nosy vulcan with an affinity for anaglyph butting in.

Most of what we know about Soyuz classes capabilities came from the semi-canon TNG novel Ship of the Line. Indications were given that they were devoid of a lot of creature comforts, had rather less than impressive science capabilities. It had powerful shields and weapons, but rather than tractor beams it used tow clamps.

It was apparently the Police Cruiser of the fleet. It even ahd yellow and red flashing lights.

Less of a gentle hand of diplomacy, and described as more of a 'knotted fist.'

A refit/retrofit might not really have much point. Considering its capabilities, aside from a lack of science capacities, are not unlike that of the NX class starship.

Now, some tasty ship parts for 240 cpoints... I might get into that. Some nice extra options for Tier 1 would be quite nice, as some of the designs are a tad lackluster.

Perhaps modern ship design like the Odyssey class applied to the same size and general framework of a Miranda/Shikhaar (Am I spelling that right?) design.

If they had to make it a '+1' ship as the Devs call it... (If I recall correctly.) A power console they could make for it could be something simple, like... The Genesis Torpedo. Sounds perfect, right?
and this fish is right ladies she was a police cruiser. the dam thing never left federation space unless it had to. in the wrath of khan the USS Reliant left a number of times (supporting regular 1) in to the borders of Klingon space. and here is the huge FYI, weapons payload of one of these ships were 2 aft and fore torps, and 2 arrays fore. it could turn on a dime, and go rather fast for its time period. if you check this ship's service record your also noticed that it had the most amount of ships built. (or atleast close to it) sorry folks this ship never had a refit or a retrofit, it was retired and they stuck a federation frigate that did a bit better at speed.

i know we are all missing and enjoyed our miranda's after all lawson from mass effect is hot and we just want her name all over the place, and the ship was kick a$$ last year when we all played it.(clearly not that long or ever for some of you.) so i think its time we accept the fact that a awesome first timers ship that we had been promoted off and accept your new commission on a new ship.

like the age old saying goes. "if you love her that much, than your be able to let her go." so stop defending federation space, and start exploring once again! afterall everyone wants to be like kirk!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
09-12-2011, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I'm not sure why any of them should be made an escort of sorts.
Interplay could use the Star Trek name in combination with the game because they had the license for both.
However ships like the "New Light Cruiser" are not actually Mirandas (explaining their completely different weapons setups) but actually look like this:

while the Dreadnought for example is the old Federation class with three nacelles which explains why the standard DN has 50% more warp power than the CA while the DD has half the warp power of the basic CA.
Since the game was based on TOS where it appeared like the power was generated in the nacelles; more nacelles mean more power in the game.
(Before you ask: in SFB the DD only has one nacelle)
This also explains some oddities in the SFC1 manual where the "New Heavy Cruiser" was mentioned to be an NCL with a small third nacelle attached to it even though that made no sense in the game:
This was simply copied over from SFB without proof-reading it.

Interplay used the SFB data charts and descriptions and assigned new models to them resulting in players who don't know the origins of the ships associating Trek ships with designations and variants that are actually not actual Trek but from a game based on it that has since then diverged to an incredible degree both in terms of technology and history from the Star Trek we know today.
In fact there is a section in their RPG (called "Prime Directive") where the makers of the game describe how much different their material and history is from canon trek and that section begins with the sentence "This is not Star Trek".

This also explains why there are some strange races in SFC like the Lyrans and Hydrans that you won't find anywhere else.

So long story short, I'd like to point out that trying to somehow connect SFC2 with STO would most likely yield confusing results.
Gee, all I did was downloaded the MODs from various online sources and pretend the struts on the Soyuz were "Missile Racks" and use the NX model as the "Old Light Cruiser".
(I used a Constellation Model for the "New Heavy Cruiser", by the way)

I thought that if STO wanted to make a TOS-Federation Sub-Faction, then SFB could have been a good place to start. Besides, a Constitution Class starship called "Reuben James" seems a bit out of place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
09-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
Gee, all I did was downloaded the MODs from various online sources and pretend the struts on the Soyuz were "Missile Racks" and use the NX model as the "Old Light Cruiser".
(I used a Constellation Model for the "New Heavy Cruiser", by the way)

I thought that if STO wanted to make a TOS-Federation Sub-Faction, then SFB could have been a good place to start. Besides, a Constitution Class starship called "Reuben James" seems a bit out of place.
Well, the problem there is the old one:
they couldn't use SFB as a basis because of the eternal legal voodoo that forced for example Interplay even though they did have the SFB license to rename the Kzinti to Mirak (I still think it stands for missile rack).
But where the heck does this Reuben James thing come from?
I just checked the official SFB shiplist registry and couldn't find any ship of that name.

http://starfleetgames.com/documents/...e_Registry.pdf
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
09-12-2011, 12:05 PM
My thinking---not that anyone cares but it's fun to speculate---is that the Soyuz class was an ELINT (electronic intelligence gathering) platform, and wasn't decommissioned due to age, but due to the ongoing peace talks between the UFP and the Klingon Empire at the time. I figure, since the Klingons were ST's analogy for the Soviets, that they had a series of arms limitation treaties, just as the US and USSR did.

The Soyuz-class could easily have been a casualty of diplomacy. The Klingons didn't want the Feds probing the Empire's borders with these massive sensor arrays (that the Soyuz carried), so they pushed to have them retired.

If they were a variant of the relatively new (at the time) Miranda class, then this would explain why they went out of service so early.

There's also no reason Bateson's USS Bozeman couldn't be thoroughly refitted during the TNG years. Being trapped in time, she didn't age like the other ships that were in actual service all those decades, so she'd be in near mint condition. And Starfleet could always find use for a ship with large, easily modernized sensor pods.

By that same token, since the rest of the class might have been mothballed all this time (presuming they weren't just scrapped), pulling them out of storage for things like the Dominion War...or STO...wouldn't be too difficult.

That's my take on it, at least. YMMV.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
09-12-2011, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reanimatedfish View Post
If they had to make it a '+1' ship as the Devs call it... (If I recall correctly.) A power console they could make for it could be something simple, like... The Genesis Torpedo. Sounds perfect, right?
Now there's an interesting idea for development!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
09-12-2011, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dawg1
My thinking---not that anyone cares but it's fun to speculate---is that the Soyuz class was an ELINT (electronic intelligence gathering) platform, and wasn't decommissioned due to age, but due to the ongoing peace talks between the UFP and the Klingon Empire at the time. I figure, since the Klingons were ST's analogy for the Soviets, that they had a series of arms limitation treaties, just as the US and USSR did.

The Soyuz-class could easily have been a casualty of diplomacy. The Klingons didn't want the Feds probing the Empire's borders with these massive sensor arrays (that the Soyuz carried), so they pushed to have them retired.

If they were a variant of the relatively new (at the time) Miranda class, then this would explain why they went out of service so early.

There's also no reason Bateson's USS Bozeman couldn't be thoroughly refitted during the TNG years. Being trapped in time, she didn't age like the other ships that were in actual service all those decades, so she'd be in near mint condition. And Starfleet could always find use for a ship with large, easily modernized sensor pods.

By that same token, since the rest of the class might have been mothballed all this time (presuming they weren't just scrapped), pulling them out of storage for things like the Dominion War...or STO...wouldn't be too difficult.

That's my take on it, at least. YMMV.

just a FYI SF doesnt scape most its navy. miranda's were still in service. soyuz was decommissioned before the peace talks, as it wasnt they good of a design anyway. peace talks with the klingons were in the 24th century while the soyuz was decommissioned in the late 23rd. with the development of transwarp drive and cloaking drives. also in the movie series (undiscovered cont.)

i swear does any body putting arguments follow up on star trek lore? or do you guys just say stuff not reading in between the lines. cause ill say it again. this ship in ST lore was decommissioned and there was never a refit or retrofit of it. the ones built were either destroyed in combat or scrap for better use else where. and they never left federation space unless on a order of operation pertaining to they post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
09-12-2011, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SojournerX
Now there's an interesting idea for development!
it is... that wasnt a weapon lol. created life than was banned by every fraction known to ST universe for what it could do.
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