Go Back   Star Trek Online > Information and Discussion > Star Trek Online General Discussion
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
The recent Tier x.5 discussions brought up an old topic. People play this game for different reasons, and what works for one group of people doesn'T necessarily work for the other.

TL;DR Version:
Unbalanced items can be particularly problematic in competitive environments like PvP or Fleet Actions.
Essentially, such problematic items should be freely available for PvE and work as they always did.
But these "problematic" items would be disallowed in PvP environments, or be changed/nerfed for PvP.

The advantage is that PvP and PvE will cause less conflict between each other. PvE players lose nothing.
PvP doesn't lead to PvE nerfs, and PvE doesn'T lead to unbalanced PvP games.

---

Unbalanced items in the C-Store or from mission rewards can wreak havoc in PvP, but they matter little for PvE players (especally solo PvE players). But since both sides use the same items, changes must be made so they don't wreak havoc for PvP. But htis leads to a lot of grumbling on the PvE side, since the items simply get less useful and interesting.
But IMO it's a real problem if unbalanced items become avaialble in PvP - you can't just not use the item yourself. You have to make sure everyone else doesn't use it either, and if that doesn't work out, PvP stops being fun until the item is fixed. That has happened a lot of times in the past, unfortunately. And when it finally gets fixed, PvE players are disappointed in turn, as a fun item might be less fun for them. (NO matter whehter they actually need it to beat the game or not - the item works less good.)

So why not simply create a PvE / PvP barrier for such items?
Call these items and ships "restricted". A restricted item might get disabled or changed in some way when it enters a zone where restricted items are not allowed.

Sure, you can fly your Rhode Island Tier 2.5 with Tractor Beam Mines at pre-nerf strength when you do your Featured Episode. But the mine gets deactived when you enter PvP (or put to the post-nerf strength), and your ships 2nd. Lt.Science Officer Slot and 2nd Engineering console are disabled, your ship flies slower, making the ship a regular Tier 2 again.

If people really want to PvP with the "unbalnaced stuff", there could be two options:
  1. Private Challenge Matches can be set to enforce or not enforce restrictions.
  2. Seperate Queues. Call it the "Advanced PvP" Queue if you want.

Something similar might be needed for other elements of this that do not involve traditional PvP:
Fleet Actions
People complete for the first place there, and having the better ship is advantagous.
So either the items are disabled/reduced entirely, or there are seperate versions of the Fleet Actions.

STFs
STFs do not involve direct competititon between players, but they are more challenging. We don't want to force people to spend money just so that others admit them to their PVP group, and getting unbalnaced items also kinda invalidates one appeal of the STF - the extra challenge.
But not everyone plays the STFs for the extra challenge and the better item rewards. Some just want to know their story, and some want the visual FX of the set items, not their powers.
Since Gozer is working on making the STFs in two difficulties, Normal and Elite, Normal could be the one where everythnig goes, Elite would be the one where restricted items don't work.

Difficulty Levels
Difficulty Levels ca also be used - maybe Elite difficulty doesn't allow restricted items either.

Restricting Items and "Unrestricting" them over time
New items (or ships) might be first created always as "restricted". They can then get evaluated in non-restricted environments (PvE, "Advanced" PvP, Tribble). After some time, they either get unrestricted entirely, or a balanced version of the item is created and the item turns into that balanced version when in restricted areas.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
08-24-2011, 02:24 AM
Eh, I'll partially agree with you. Myself and others have stated previously that their should be entirely separate definitions for skills and items between PVE and PVP. This would allow Cryptic to balance the two to different levels without PVP constantly affecting PVE.

I personally don't see any necessity or point to adding your restricted tag idea to any PVE part of the game or difficulty levels though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
08-24-2011, 02:47 AM
I actually think this is a really good idea.
PvP'rs get a relatively balanced playing field and PvE'rs, well PvE'rs don't get their favourite item nerfed
Not that they really need it to win the ever challenging PvE

I would agree with you that if this was to be implemented in PvP it would also need to be in the fleet action instances too. Anything where there is direct competition between players for performance based rewards.


Cryptic has shown that they really don't give a hoot about pvp though, so I can't see tham investing the time to 'make it so'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
08-24-2011, 07:50 AM
I have a counter suggestion.

How about PvPers change themselves to accommodate only Pre-Made builds, ships and gear for their competitive matches instead of making the game change to accommodate their preferred play style? PvPers get balance in competition and PvE doesn't get subjected to constant flavor-of-the-month changes to the bill-paying PvE game. And everyone profits!

If the game has to be changed in order to accommodate PvPers should it not also be changed to accommodate RPers? Ya know, give the RP'ers their designated instances that they can police themselves and enjoy their play style.

And if PvPers and RPers get their changes shouldn't the PvE'ers get changes to the game to accommodate their play style - like, err, I don't know maybe a special ship with a special power that we can call the Rhode Island?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
08-24-2011, 08:19 AM
You seem to miss the point of the thread. It's about solving a problem so both sides benefit from it. No one has to change his play style or personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
I have a counter suggestion.

How about PvPers change themselves to accommodate only Pre-Made builds, ships and gear for their competitive matches instead of making the game change to accommodate their preferred play style? PvPers get balance in competition and PvE doesn't get subjected to constant flavor-of-the-month changes to the bill-paying PvE game. And everyone profits!
How about we change all PvE players so they don't care if abilities are nerfed for game balance?

It would be better to come up with a proposal that can be solved technically, and not by changing human nature or at least the nature of your customers.

Quote:
If the game has to be changed in order to accommodate PvPers should it not also be changed to accommodate RPers? Ya know, give the RP'ers their designated instances that they can police themselves and enjoy their play style.
You seem to miss the entire point of this thread. I am saying the game has to accomondate both groups. It cannot change the groups itself. It can try to alienate some group so it becomes a non-issue, but that means less revenue because there are less players.

But a solution where everything goes for the RPers and only balanced stuff works for PvPers is exactly what accommodates both sides.


Quote:
And if PvPers and RPers get their changes shouldn't the PvE'ers get changes to the game to accommodate their play style - like, err, I don't know maybe a special ship with a special power that we can call the Rhode Island?
Yes, that's what I am saying. They can get that. And they shouldn't take it into regular PvP, because there we need balance. In PvE, we don't need it, so they can use it to their heart's content.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
08-24-2011, 08:50 AM
..you called for the game to restrict things for pvp, all he said was you can already do that by setting your own rules and pvping only with those that follow the rules set forth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
08-24-2011, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBludd View Post
..you called for the game to restrict things for pvp, all he said was you can already do that by setting your own rules and pvping only with those that follow the rules set forth.
That doesn't work, because there is no way to enforce those rules - or rather, all ways to enforce the rule would create a lot of overhead for me as a player. I would have to watch the battle for "illegal" items and then end the match when they appear. It can work in tournaments, but those are special cases. (And those are already self-organized, there isn't any UI to set them up.)

The current real alternative is that all overpowered items and ships get their respective nerfs or be removed entirely. That works for me as well, but it causes a lot of friction. That friction could be avoided with a method like I suggest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
08-24-2011, 08:58 AM
The best solution is to develop the game form a PvP balance perspective. Then creating the PvE content.
That way you keep things in balance for the PvP crowd and you can balance the PvE content against what is already in game and in use.
No need to bring in ueberweapons of doom in the PvE side and find out that they totaly destroy the PvP balance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
08-24-2011, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBludd View Post
..you called for the game to restrict things for pvp, all he said was you can already do that by setting your own rules and pvping only with those that follow the rules set forth.
That would only work if you were playing in a pre arranged match, if you were queued then you'd get a little of everything so it's a less than ideal solution. Although suggesting those that enjoy PvP only play with those they know would mean they'd only play against the ships and skills that are unrestricted it would also be stale and likely lead to them leaving, this isn't good for either PvP or PvE players; PvE is currently easy enough with the stock ships that no more power is required and the only thing attempting to restrain the increasing ships power are the PvP players who want all the ships to be comparable to each other so that no ship stands above the others.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
08-24-2011, 06:13 PM
Some folks seem like they are only truly happy when they are arguing.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:25 AM.