Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
08-27-2011, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Then answer me this: Are you more likely to try to figure out what happened if you got omgwtfpwned or if you lost by a thread?

If I lost by a thread I might chalk it up to timing or a crit or one of a few other things that has nothing to do with the way that I was playing. But if I got annihilated then I would seriously look at what I was doing to allow that to happen to me in the first place so that I could learn and do better.
This is what I'm doing, or at least trying to do. I didn't start PvPing until about two weeks ago, and I always review the combat log to see what the other team did and how they did it. I recognize that not every player does that, but that doesn't mean that everyone who gets rolled in PvP is an "emblem tourist." Some are just unskilled beginners, like myself. Doesn't mean we're all going to stay that way.

IMO, there's a lot to be said for the earlier comment about throwing the new guys into the deep end of the pool versus teaching them to swim first. Some people don't catch on quickly (or at all) that they're screwing up. Some people don't pay attention to what they're doing and to what they might be doing wrong. In either case, I think they just don't figure out what they need to do to get help and improve their game. It's simple ignorance, and ignorance is a different animal from outright stupidity.

I don't think it's intended, but the vibe I'm getting from this thread is something on the order of "STFU n00b & getoutta my Q!" So before I misunderstand everyone, perhaps one of the more experienced PvPers would kindly explain to me the message I *should* be getting? Please?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
08-27-2011, 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark_Kent View Post
This is what I'm doing, or at least trying to do. I didn't start PvPing until about two weeks ago, and I always review the combat log to see what the other team did and how they did it. I recognize that not every player does that, but that doesn't mean that everyone who gets rolled in PvP is an "emblem tourist." Some are just unskilled beginners, like myself. Doesn't mean we're all going to stay that way.

IMO, there's a lot to be said for the earlier comment about throwing the new guys into the deep end of the pool versus teaching them to swim first. Some people don't catch on quickly (or at all) that they're screwing up. Some people don't pay attention to what they're doing and to what they might be doing wrong. In either case, I think they just don't figure out what they need to do to get help and improve their game. It's simple ignorance, and ignorance is a different animal from outright stupidity.

I don't think it's intended, but the vibe I'm getting from this thread is something on the order of "STFU n00b & getoutta my Q!" So before I misunderstand everyone, perhaps one of the more experienced PvPers would kindly explain to me the message I *should* be getting? Please?
As long as you're trying to improve I doubt any of us have a problem with new guys.

The problem is when guys that well, let's just be honest after a year + of pvping suck (often these people have been playing longer than I have), decide to be hateful, and refuse to learn, and then complain endlessly. And there's more than a handful of people that are this bad and possessing a horrid attitude while sucking.

They don't ask, they don't try and they have no intention on improving, and insist it's us that is the problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
08-27-2011, 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark_Kent View Post
I don't think it's intended, but the vibe I'm getting from this thread is something on the order of "STFU n00b & getoutta my Q!" So before I misunderstand everyone, perhaps one of the more experienced PvPers would kindly explain to me the message I *should* be getting? Please?
That's not the intended message, I assure you; it's just frustration from an old debate that stems from the fact that this game has a very steep learning curve.

While there are a few *******s out there who just want to gank newbies and call themselves awesome for it, there are a lot more who are perfectly willing to help people.

Now there are a few things that could be done to try and help beginners who have been tossed into the fire, like a beginner league or something but they would still have the same ultimate result that once you were done and out then you'd be right back into the fire again. The best thing that you can do if you're struggling is swallow your pride and ask for help from more experienced players, you might find an ***, or you might just get what you need
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
08-27-2011, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Brethren
This is pretty much what i have been doing and its starting to pay off , i asked for help and i got more than i asked for and im totaly loving pvp these days ,

Only last month when the opvp escort tourney happened , it was really my first high end game and boy did i learn a few things ,,, i got hammered every game only the last couple of games did i do better but still got smoked like a pound of bacon ,

I posted on the forums about my build got some advice , still it was not up to scratch , then sent some pm's and then this wonderful chap named -BigRed sorted me out BIG time , now i have this "Your dual antiproton banks- overload III deals 61401 (36397) antproton damage to XXXXX" and that made me happy ,, still got miles to go , just got to hang in there and dig away and play with the big boys and girls at this game and it will come in time , so the theory of the story is ask for help and it will all unfold in time ,and its thanks to the pvp community
Pay attention kids, this is how you get better.

The only thing you can do is suck it up, and try to learn from your many, many defeats...

Then after enough deaths, you might just catch up with the people who have been playing over year.

I dunno why so many people seem to think they should be insta-good.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
08-27-2011, 01:09 PM
facerolling the keyboard, and winning pve might have more than a little to do with that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
08-27-2011, 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Then answer me this: Are you more likely to try to figure out what happened if you got omgwtfpwned or if you lost by a thread?

If I lost by a thread I might chalk it up to timing or a crit or one of a few other things that has nothing to do with the way that I was playing. But if I got annihilated then I would seriously look at what I was doing to allow that to happen to me in the first place so that I could learn and do better.

PvP is, in every game, determined by the person or people who want to win. If a person doesn't give a **** enough to figure out why they're getting killed so easily then why should any of us agree to take steps to help them? What part of this game would benefit from us encouraging the lower tiered quality PvPers to keep doing everything wrong that they're doing? If players want to learn, the OrganizedPVP channel is there for people, the Forums are here for people, there are videos all over youtube of people PvPing. The options are there for them.

Premades against PUGs gives the advantage to premades, yes; but pugs are not down and out if there are good quality players on their side. For that matter, how do you determine what a premade is? Is it a full 5-man team? Or is is any pre-created team of any size.....because that certainly mets the definition of a premade and it hardly seems fair to force a group of 3 friends into the same boat as a 5-man tournament team if you're really going to separate people like that.....

It's a path you don't want to go on Azurian that is filled with more problems and answers nothing....
You learn either way.

At this current rate, nothing will be gained because the larger po population aren't going to step up to veteran standards. And we all know that in the next couple of months there is going to be a major hit to PvP, enough that queues could very well be completely dead (which right now they are seemingly on life support).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
08-27-2011, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
You learn either way.

At this current rate, nothing will be gained because the larger po population aren't going to step up to veteran standards. And we all know that in the next couple of months there is going to be a major hit to PvP, enough that queues could very well be completely dead (which right now they are seemingly on life support).
There will be a major hit to the game in the next few months, not just PvP. I am trying to tell you that the fault is not with premades, nor is it with the queues; it's with the game's learning curve and once you help people up that curve then things get dramatically better.

The thing is though that you do not help people by separating them from the good players and encouraging them to continue using skills and strategies that are combat ineffective, and if they do then it would only be because a few people decided to experiment while the rest would continue to be in the dust.....

You help nobody by separating off the populations, and in fact you only serve to create more problems then you could possibly solve.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
08-27-2011, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
There will be a major hit to the game in the next few months, not just PvP. I am trying to tell you that the fault is not with premades, nor is it with the queues; it's with the game's learning curve and once you help people up that curve then things get dramatically better.

The thing is though that you do not help people by separating them from the good players and encouraging them to continue using skills and strategies that are combat ineffective, and if they do then it would only be because a few people decided to experiment while the rest would continue to be in the dust.....

You help nobody by separating off the populations, and in fact you only serve to create more problems then you could possibly solve.

I won't deny that PvE is far easier than PvP. Even PvE on Elite isn't even close to the average PvPer. Sure if they gave more agression to NPCs with cannons like the BoPs, then we might be on the right track. But it's up to Cryptic if they want to up the level a bit. Frankly, if they gave NPCs some tricks from PvP, things would be more entertaining.


But nobody is saying seperating off the population, just giving them a choice. One choice gives them a chance to fight the best as a team, the other, a random chance that some of the best are split off and increasing your chance at winning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
08-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
But nobody is saying seperating off the population, just giving them a choice. One choice gives them a chance to fight the best as a team, the other, a random chance that some of the best are split off and increasing your chance at winning.
This is hitting the nail on the head. Look if I can find me a bunch of people to team with and go the hardcore PvP route I would(thats for another thread though). But the fact is that even if I did have a regular team to roll with and hit up some hardcore match up's I would still occasionally enjoy joining a random que for some casual PvP. As Azurian said it should be about choice. Do I want to roll hardcore today and test my skills or do I just want to log on and play a few casual rounds of PvP and not have to deal with high end teams rolling over me.

This seems to be getting off track as a lot of the responses are now straying into the idea that a seperated que is simply because some people dont want to learn or get better. Thats not the case, again as Azurian said it's about choice and flavor and what you are in the mood to play.

Another thing the random arena que would do is simply ensure that the playing field is even going in. If each team is truly random neither side can claim that they were at a designed disadvantage. Fact is if I make a team of friends and we set our builds to synergize and we know each others weaknesses and strengths and we all have defined roles we are going to enjoy a sizeable advantage over 99% of PUG's and run rough shod over them. And where is the fun in that. If I make a team I want to go up against other pre made teams to truly test my skill not some unfortunate PUG that stands no chance. A seperate que benefits all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
08-27-2011, 10:00 PM
My advise would be to queue up for C&H if there's an arena premade which you keep hitting. It may be people are just looking to practice and it's a slow night so you keep pulling the same team. The spread out nature of C&H allows you to pick your fights, and on your side you only need 1 or 2 other players to play as a team to be effective vs 1 guy getting blown up 8x in arena killing the team rather quickly. Tbo in C&H I usually see premades blob and they just want fights, but there are times even then you can get 1 or 2 to chase you and then have a decent fight.

Also, the private 10 v 10 are fun for the shear chaos.
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