Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
08-29-2011, 06:56 AM
My own escort loadout Ive been messing around with - With pretty good success.

Defiant - Tactical Captain

Front
4x Dual Heavy Cannons

Rear
2x Turrets - 1 Beam Array

--

Borg Set

--

Field Generator - +7 Shield Power
Borg Console - +Sensor
4x Energytype or Cannons

--

BOffs

Tac Cmdr : TacTeam 1 - Target Shield 2 - Target Engine 3 - CRF 3
Tac LtC : TacTeam 1 - CSV1 - APBeta 2
Tac Ens : Target Weapons 1

EP2Shield 1 - EP2Shield 2

Tractor Beam 1 - Polarize 2

--

Tactics: Decloak fully buffed at shortest range possible (Youll usually get pulled from cloak by Scis at 3-4k range) - Tractor them and unload a barrage of cannonfire into them.. If they pop RSP, TacTeam or other hardening buffs, orbit them so the rear array can hit, and continue to kill subsystems until their defenses are down, once down, rebuff / tractor (if up) and continue the assault.

Pros of this build:

It does significant damage over time, and have a respectable spikepotential.
It have the benefit of not requiring much in the way of energy management.
It is cheap to spec, leaving more points for other areas.
It provide the means to keep attacking an enemy even when RSP, Ablative, high shield resists or Feedback Pulse is up.

Cons of this build:
It doesnt have the insane spike possible with Torpedos or DBB BOLs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
08-29-2011, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
I won't. Hopefully same can be said for you



Well, I appreciate the effort, but if you're not an expert why make a guide? As someone who is an expert, I feel the need to correct you on some areas I feel you've gotten wrong.



Omega is one option, as is Aux2ID, EP2E, deuterium, etc. Also be aware that the higher aux you run the higher your stealth rating, letting you get closer. Don't use MES.



There is little to no debate among the top echelon of players, omega is better for movement and anti-control, while beta is far better for damage (especially for very hard spike damage). In an ideal world, you want to take both. They are different tools for different jobs. What you don't want to ever do is take APO3, since the damage boost is negligible vs. an ABP3 or CRF3. The main reason to take APO is for the movement debuff immunity, which APO1 does the same as APO3.




No, you want 3 turrets aft. Your job is to deliver damage facing forwards, if you are dicking around trying to hit people with rear firing torpedoes you are doing it incredibly wrong. There is little reason to take a tricobalt mine post-nerf, and absolutely no reason to put one on an escort. Beams are a big no-no since they don't contribute at all to forward DPS. You might be able to take a single beam bank in the rear for target subsystems, but I wouldn't recommend it. About the only thing that you might want to stick in the aft slot besides a turret would be a chroniton mine if your team is trying to win via spam.



There is no reason to use FAW on an escort anymore, BO1 for what I'm guessing is a rear single beam bank sounds rather silly. There's some debate to this, but THY3 is generally not worth it vs. other skills you can slot at Lt. Cmdr. THY 1 and THY 2 don't do much less damage, and since they do significantly more damage per torpedo they are actually "burst-ier". THY3 is still the best torpedo skill, but IMHO is not always worth it vs. taking a lower ranked THY skill and slotting something else in at Lt. Cmdr. Again, APO3 is a no-no. Here's a corrected setup.

Cmdr Slot: TT1, APB1, CRF2, CRF3
Lt. Cmdr Slot: THY1, THY2, APO1
Ens Slot: TT1



Again, just stick with 3x Turrets for rear, especially when you only have two DHCs up front creating more need for forward DPS. As far as skills, you absolutely need an ABP since lowering the resistance rating is essential on the BO + THY combo. You want to preload the THY and BO, and you want to "double tap" your BO, so you fire both back-to-back in a short period. Timing the BO is essential so you want to either have your DBB on a separate key, or better yet create a toggle so that you can control whether or not the DBB is firing. For example, on a similar build my keybinds look like this:

Spacebar = fire all energy weapons.
Ctrl+Spacebar = fire all energy weapons except for the DBB.
Capslock = Fire torpeods.

On this type of build you want to be running at least one, but better yet two EPS consoles in order to regen drain from the overload quickly. Here is a corrected power setup:

Cmdr: TT1, CRF1, BO3, APB3
Lt. Cmdr: THY1, BO2, CRF2 -or- APO1
Ens: THY1

There is a bit more leeway on this one to stray from what I would use (for example, you could try 2xBO3) but taking APO3 over APB3 for this kind of build is quite frankly wrong.



No, just no. You have a good reason to hate this build. It's unreliable and only a complete noob would choose to stick a tric in the front of an escort. It might have been viable a long time ago, but not anymore.



Just say no to Jam Targeting Sensors. What a worthless skill. You may as well take Aux2bat while you're at it :p

Look, if you're playing in a premade team or with a healer you don't want to load your escort full of self heals. Your heals are going to be weaker than everyone else's and you contribute to healing by blowing people up. The more initiative you have and the less enemies that are shooting back at your team, the better your team's survivability is going to be. Escorts die when they get controlled, and a few self heals will not change that. You need to take anti-control skills to ensure that you can always face a target and deal damage while keeping your movement and defense rating untarnished.

Here's what you should take for a premade team, or if you're playing with a competent healer:

APO1 (if you can fit it)
EPtS1, Aux2ID1
TB1, PH2, PSW1 (if you're playing an MVAM)

APO1, Aux2ID1, and PH2 can get you out of various forms of control while raising your resistance and/or defense rating. This means that the heals that you do receive from team mates will go farther. Tractor beam is essential since it helps you stay lined up on a single facing at close range (max damage) and drastically reduces your target's defense rating. This helps you to hit more, crit more, and crit harder. PSW1 is a no-brainier if you can slot it in (mvam, bop). It's the best offensive skill in the game, giving you a 4 second kill window. It's a very good defensive skill as well.

In terms of a pugging set up go ahead and load yourself up with self heals. I don't think pugging in an escort is very fun though thanks to the general horribleness of most of the support class players you'll be playing with. When I'm pugging I'll typically take a healer since I get less angry that way



Absolutely agreed. In any ship, using the power levels that each situation calls for is one of the signs of a great player.
Is this a troll post? There is so much wrong with half of what you said, I don't have time to argue ALL of your points, but I will say this: I do consider myself an excellent escort pilot, while maybe not the BEST escort pilot, I am regarded as one of the best, and considering that the builds you disagreed with I've been using since Season 2 with great results, and I have tried things you suggested, I can honestly say that some of your post is full of it. First, the negligble gains from having 3x turrets in the back instead of 2x + Tricobalt are completely overshadowed by the extra power drain from firing 7 weapons instead of 6 fore. The added ability to beat up a shield facing while your opponent absorbs it using Tactical Team, then fly by and drop a Trico on his now unshielded FRONT facing (assuming you were shooting his rear) is definitely worth the loss of the ~200 dps you lose by not taking the turret, plus its so much fun to decisively end engagements this way. FAW is for clearing spam, not for practical use. Other people like to use Beam Target Subsystems with a beam in the rear; I don't per se, but other's do, that's why these builds are included. Unfortunately I don't have time to reply to all of your disagreements, if you send me a specific build I may include it in the thread but so far from experience I do not agree with everything you've said, nor do I agree with most of it at that. I will have to do more experimentation to see if APB is more useful to me, but for the moment with my build APO3 fits the bill more, as its immunity, speed boost, and damage boost are very nice, AND they apply to shield damage as well, not just to hull resistance as beta does. In addition, all of the movement buffs and defense buffs from Omega are higher from Omega3 then Omega1, so there are tons of reasons to use Omega3 over Omega1 when all Beta3 does is a glorified FoMM, which is useful if your target is an idiot and doesn't balance shields. And finally, if you're going to "critique" my guide and suggest changes, don't come across like an arrogant self-proclaimed "Expert who feels the need to correct me." I didn't pick up STO yesterday and decide to write a guide today, I do have a bit of experience, and coming across with that kind of introduction seriously made me disregard half of your posts content because you were far too arrogant in its delivery. However, thank you for your criticism, I will look into some of your claims later, but as of right now, real life calls.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
08-29-2011, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
There is little to no debate among the top echelon of players, omega is better for movement and anti-control, while beta is far better for damage (especially for very hard spike damage). In an ideal world, you want to take both. They are different tools for different jobs. What you don't want to ever do is take APO3, since the damage boost is negligible vs. an ABP3 or CRF3. The main reason to take APO is for the movement debuff immunity, which APO1 does the same essential on the BO + THY combo.
So in this time of multiple Tac Teams is APB really that much better?

Tac debuffs are still removed by Tac Team right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
08-29-2011, 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch246
So in this time of multiple Tac Teams is APB really that much better?

Tac debuffs are still removed by Tac Team right?
Thank you! I was hoping someone else would notice this, but I forgot to mention it in my reply. APB is cleared by Tactical team, absolutely, which means that his build would now have a very useless Cmdr level tactical ability while I constantly rotate my 2 tactical teams. Meanwhile my APO3 will still be adding a small amount of damage to my ship, as well as defense, damage resistance, and tractor immunity, and extra speed. Top echelon players rely on spam to win their fights, the underdogs use APO3.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
08-29-2011, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Move the DBB icon so its to the RIGHT of your DHCs. Why, you ask? Because STO handles the firing key in a left-to-right order, so if you press Fire Phasers, the game activates them in order. If you have BO3 charged, and hit fire with you DBB in the left-most spot, guess what happens? It fires, drains your weapons power by 50, and then your cannons fire, doing almost no damage. So yeah, move that real quick, so the 2 cannons fire first, only draining around 24 power, and there's a split second of "chargeup" for the BO3 so most of that power will be refunded when the BO3 fires.
Good to know, thank you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
08-29-2011, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetRaccoon
Considering Sub-Nuc is "free" while taking RSP just to bait a Sub-Nuc, and blowing a team cooldown (Sci Team)... Dunno if that advantage is worth it..
Situational advantages are ... by their very nature ... situational. Having a button that could prompt the use of one of the most popular powers in PVP has its uses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
08-29-2011, 12:37 PM
'cuz after you have baited that SubNuc and it expires, it's time to lock'n'load, do a 180 and give'em hell!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
08-29-2011, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
Is this a troll post?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
There is so much wrong with half of what you said, I don't have time to argue ALL of your points, but I will say this: I do consider myself an excellent escort pilot, while maybe not the BEST escort pilot, I am regarded as one of the best
If you were one of the best:
  • You would be posting this in the PvP forums
  • I would know who you are
  • You would know who I am
  • You wouldn't say "I'm not an expert"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
First, the negligble gains from having 3x turrets in the back instead of 2x + Tricobalt are completely overshadowed by the extra power drain from firing 7 weapons instead of 6 fore.
Wrong, especially in conjunction with Rapid Fire. APO3 vs. APO1 takes my DHCs from 2000 damage all the way to 2087, which is what I would call negligible


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
The added ability to beat up a shield facing while your opponent absorbs it using Tactical Team, then fly by and drop a Trico on his now unshielded FRONT facing (assuming you were shooting his rear) is definitely worth the loss of the ~200 dps you lose by not taking the turret, plus its so much fun to decisively end engagements this way.
Well, that 200 number is easily dispelled with Nagorak's DPS calculator, which takes drain into account. The latest version (that still works) gives a ~550 DPS difference between 2 and 3 turrets using 3 DHCs. That's an extremely low ball figure since it assumes125 weapons power and not specing. Over-capping, EPS consoles, spec, and certain keybinds that let you control when you fire front and rear weapons will all increase that number significantly.

As far as trics go, sure you can fly by an enemy and try to deliver one from your butt, but that's prone to fail (especially if even one person on the other side is using FAW) and if it does fail you significantly gimp your damage. In any case you would use tricobalt torpedos for such a maneuver. In your "Cannotorpedosaurus" build you are using a mine, which take longer to activate and doesn't travel as fast. You are aren't just using the wrong tactic, you're telling people to use that wrong tactic the wrong way!

That being said, the butt tric is fun. I use one on all of my science vessels, where losing some forward DPS doesn't matter much. Doing it on an escort is questionable, but doing it with mines instead of torpedoes is about the wrongest thing you can possibly do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
FAW is for clearing spam, not for practical use
If you're trying to clear spam with an escort you're doing it incredibly wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
Other people like to use Beam Target Subsystems with a beam in the rear; I don't per se, but other's do, that's why these builds are included.
I know of a couple competent players who use BTxS from a rear beam. I don't really agree with it, but those two players are seasoned PvPers. Anyone who needs a how-to guide for playing escort is going to get royally screwed up trying to use that tactic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
for the moment with my build APO3 fits the bill more, as its immunity, speed boost, and damage boost are very nice, AND they apply to shield damage as well, not just to hull resistance as beta does. In addition, all of the movement buffs and defense buffs from Omega are higher from Omega3 then Omega1, so there are tons of reasons to use Omega3 over Omega1 when all Beta3 does is a glorified FoMM, which is useful if your target is an idiot and doesn't balance shields.
Actually, all of the movement buffs cap off at 144%, so both APO1 and APO3 are the exact same in that regard. Here's what you get from taking APO3 vs. APO1
  • An extra "20%" all damage strength. You'll only get the full 20% on certain science skills. For your weapons boost, that number seems to apply loosely to your weapon's base damage, so 20% actually becomes ~4.35% overall. This is negligible compared to ABP3 and CRF3.
  • Damage resistance goes from 18% to 30%, or an extra 12% damage resistance. Given the diminishing returns in resistance ratings, this number is probably negligible unless your resistance rating is very close to 0 in the first place.
  • Defense rating goes from 18% to 30%, which is actually significant

So the only real significant difference between APO1 and APO3 is the defense rating. The movement buff is the same, the resistance increase is small, and the damage increase is significantly lower than other Cmdr. level skills. Overall, it's not worth taking if your focus is on doing damage, which it should be if you are doing it right.

Beta also has it's disadvantages, especially with the number of tactical teams flying around. If your goal is to deliver a massive alpha strike which quickly kills an opponent (such as your 2xBO example), then you should still definitely take a beta.

For example, I have a science alpha strike BoP with 2xBO and a shockwave. I use a beta 3 because the chances of a tac team finding it's way to my target during my kill window is minuscule. On a conventional set up with 3xDHCs I might take a low level beta (I would take an APO level 1 before taking a beta though), and I would slot in a CRF3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
come across like an arrogant self-proclaimed "Expert who feels the need to correct me."
Most PvPers would probably agree with you that I can be arrogant, but you're still spreading wrong information. Doing so from a supposed position of authority (and you're giving mixed signals on this... do you consider yourself "not an expert", or do you consider yourself one of the best escort pilots in the game?!) is also a form of arrogance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
08-29-2011, 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Good to know, thank you.
A bit of a tangent but, info like that would be far more accessible to the playerbase if they weren't so heavy handed on "necro" threads since info like that is contained in old posts and what not.

There used to be quite a bit of info sharing in the early days of this forum. But lately? I dunno.

Back to the topic at hand though, since it's a nice example of getting back to that whole idea of sharing information about gameplay! Kudos!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
08-29-2011, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch246
So in this time of multiple Tac Teams is APB really that much better?

Tac debuffs are still removed by Tac Team right?
That's where my point about "especially for very hard spike damage" comes in. You can expect your beta to be cleared sometime through it's duration if you are playing against a skilled team. Where beta comes in nowadays is in delivering massive burst. The goal is to kill your target quickly, before he gets a tactical team.

Again, beta is just a tool. It is not "better than omega", it's just different. In fact, I'll typically take an APO1 before I take a beta as the movement buff and immunity is essential. The difference between APO3 and APB3 is that APB3 actually still fits into a couple of builds, while APO3 hasn't made any sense to take since Fawscorts became nonviable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
which means that his build would now have a very useless Cmdr level tactical ability while I constantly rotate my 2 tactical teams.
Well, if it were me on my one toon who uses ABP3 you would be stunned and SNBed if needed, followed quickly by two beam overloads and a HYT. Tactical team would be a non-factor, which is kind of the point :p

That being said, so what? A lot of escorts run 2x tac team. A lot of science ships and cruisers don't run any. Against a good team you shouldn't expect a beta to last the full 15 seconds, but it will still contribute to the DPS of you and your team while it is up. Beta isn't as good as it used to be, obviously, but is still better than slotting in FAW or BO for a rear firing single beam bank!
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