Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
08-29-2011, 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
If you were one of the best:
  • You would be posting this in the PvP forums
  • I would know who you are
  • You would know who I am
  • You wouldn't say "I'm not an expert"
  • I posted this from a PVPers standpoint in this forum so more people would see it, and hopefully help them.
  • I don't care if you know me.
  • I really don't want to know you, especially with your attitude.
  • I said "I'm not an expert" to acknowledge there are those who are better then me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Wrong, especially in conjunction with Rapid Fire. APO3 vs. APO1 takes my DHCs from 2000 damage all the way to 2087, which is what I would call negligible
This is why I asked if this was a troll post. I said very clearly in the first post that I will not be having the APO/APB dispute here. APB is far too vulnerable to Tactical Team and does absolutely nothing while the shields are up. If it affected shields as well as hull resistance, I would be all for it. I do acknowledge it is useful for burst attacks, I just stated that I don't prefer to use it. I also clearly stated in the first post "Feel free to experiment" AND "If you prefer APB to APO, use it instead." Why you persist on flaming me for preferring to use it, I know not. I have used both, and I prefer APO3, at least for now. That may change in a week, I'll be back to update the guide. Now leave it be, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Well, that 200 number is easily dispelled with Nagorak's DPS calculator, which takes drain into account. The latest version (that still works) gives a ~550 DPS difference between 2 and 3 turrets using 3 DHCs. That's an extremely low ball figure since it assumes125 weapons power and not specing. Over-capping, EPS consoles, spec, and certain keybinds that let you control when you fire front and rear weapons will all increase that number significantly.
Just to humor you, I'll try this and report back if I notice any major difference. 550 dps isn't much when 1 DHC does around 2000 dps, and since a good alpha strike should only last a few seconds at best if done properly, you're not talking a helluva increase in damage, but just in case I'm wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
As far as trics go, sure you can fly by an enemy and try to deliver one from your butt, but that's prone to fail (especially if even one person on the other side is using FAW) and if it does fail you significantly gimp your damage. In any case you would use tricobalt torpedos for such a maneuver. In your "Cannotorpedosaurus" build you are using a mine, which take longer to activate and doesn't travel as fast. You are aren't just using the wrong tactic, you're telling people to use that wrong tactic the wrong way!
Not all of the builds here are builds I use. These are builds I've seen used by other players that worked well, builds I have used and continue to use, or builds people have submitted to me. I don't use mines, period. If you look closely you'll notice an (or) in that build you're referring to; this is to indicate you can swap this out. I do use a Trico Torp, not a mine, but friends have used mines (prior to the FAW FotW) and had mixed success with them, so I thought it worth posting. Pardon me for listing options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
That being said, the butt tric is fun. I use one on all of my science vessels, where losing some forward DPS doesn't matter much. Doing it on an escort is questionable, but doing it with mines instead of torpedoes is about the wrongest thing you can possibly do.
Don't say something is wrong just because you don't use it. Personally I don't think a Defiant with a DBB is right at all; its about the furthest from canon you can get. But this is a game, a game which gives us choices. Considering those choices is up to each individual player, and if they want to use it, don't insult them for it. That's beyond arrogance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
If you're trying to clear spam with an escort you're doing it incredibly wrong.
I know several players who would disagree. Anything to keep rogue mines off your ***, or photonic fleets from throwing you off, anything to clear the spamfest PVP has become these days is worth looking into. Sure, there are other ways to do it, CSV, PSW, CPB, whatever. I was listing an option, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
I know of a couple competent players who use BTxS from a rear beam. I don't really agree with it, but those two players are seasoned PvPers. Anyone who needs a how-to guide for playing escort is going to get royally screwed up trying to use that tactic.
And how else will they learn, pray-tell? I doubt they'll listen to you much, coming across like you're the best damn escort pilot in the game. I'd rather learn by trying it until I get the hang of it, personally. Anyone else see anything wrong with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Actually, all of the movement buffs cap off at 144%, so both APO1 and APO3 are the exact same in that regard. Here's what you get from taking APO3 vs. APO1
  • An extra "20%" all damage strength. You'll only get the full 20% on certain science skills. For your weapons boost, that number seems to apply loosely to your weapon's base damage, so 20% actually becomes ~4.35% overall. This is negligible compared to ABP3 and CRF3.
  • Damage resistance goes from 18% to 30%, or an extra 12% damage resistance. Given the diminishing returns in resistance ratings, this number is probably negligible unless your resistance rating is very close to 0 in the first place.
  • Defense rating goes from 18% to 30%, which is actually significant

So the only real significant difference between APO1 and APO3 is the defense rating. The movement buff is the same, the resistance increase is small, and the damage increase is significantly lower than other Cmdr. level skills. Overall, it's not worth taking if your focus is on doing damage, which it should be if you are doing it right.
I actually didn't know they capped out at those values. That's good to know. I did know the damage bonus only applies to weapon base damage (which is ridiculous, by the way) and not to the after-skills values. I may look into replacing APO3 with CRF3, and then HY3 with APO1 and replacing a CRF1 with HY2 just to experiment. If my results are good, I'll give credit where its due, and update the guide to reflect that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Most PvPers would probably agree with you that I can be arrogant, but you're still spreading wrong information. Doing so from a supposed position of authority (and you're giving mixed signals on this... do you consider yourself "not an expert", or do you consider yourself one of the best escort pilots in the game?!) is also a form of arrogance.
No, I'm spreading information that has worked for me and continues to work. What you're claiming is the ONLY way to do it is your way, or that your way is the BEST, which is far worse. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm sure you can attest to that, since you clearly have multiple toons with undoubtedly different builds that are all effective in their own right. I will try what you've suggested, just do me a favor and try not to come across so high and mighty about it. Deal?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
08-29-2011, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
I said "I'm not an expert" to acknowledge there are those who are better then me.
It doesn't work that way. Either you are, as you said "one of the best escort pilots in the game" and you are an expert, or you aren't. You can't be "one of the best" at something and not be an expert. By that logic an Olympic bronze medalist is "not an expert" because two people beat him!!!

So just be straight about it, do you consider yourself an expert escort pilot or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
This is why I asked if this was a troll post. I said very clearly in the first post that I will not be having the APO/APB dispute here.
You aren't listening then. I'm not saying that APB is better than APO, or that APO is better than APB. What I'm saying is that there shouldn't be a debate, and among top players there is no debate. They are quite simply different tools for different jobs. To think of it like there is some kind of debate about which is better is approaching the situation wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
I do acknowledge it is useful for burst attacks, I just stated that I don't prefer to use it. I also clearly stated in the first post "Feel free to experiment" AND "If you prefer APB to APO, use it instead."
Again, the fact that you would say something like "if you prefer APB use it instead" underlines the fact that you are thinking about it all wrong. Look at the Corrected 3DHC + 1 Torp build I posted:

Cmdr Slot: TT1, APB1, CRF2, CRF3
Lt. Cmdr Slot: THY1, THY2, APO1
Ens Slot: TT1

On a Raptor or Defiant you have 8 tactical slots. That is enough for two copies of Tac Team, two copies of CRF, two copies of THY, and two attack patterns. You don't need to slot something silly like FAW for a rear firing single beam. You can have it all! If you hate beta so much, then put in a delta. Delta can be used to increase your own resistance, can be used on team mates, and still debuffs multiple enemies who are focused on a target. If there is such a thing as an "attack pattern debate", it's not omega vs. beta, it's beta vs. delta!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
Just to humor you, I'll try this and report back if I notice any major difference. 550 dps isn't much when 1 DHC does around 2000 dps, and since a good alpha strike should only last a few seconds at best if done properly, you're not talking a helluva increase in damage, but just in case I'm wrong...
That 550 number is at only 125 weapons power, with no spec, using common mk xi weapons and no EPS consoles. It's an extremely low ball figure. In actual usage that number is going to be a lot higher. The point of the 550 number was that it was easy for me to obtain and it showed how far off you were with your 200 guesstimate. Don't forget that one more forward firing weapon is also going to increase your proc rate. A shield proc from a phaser wielding escort usually results in a kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
Don't say something is wrong just because you don't use it.
If I say something is wrong, it's because it is wrong. There are plenty of builds that I don't use that are correct. Whether or not I personally use a build is irrelevant. There are trade-offs, and then there's gimping yourself. Big difference. If I tell you that you are doing something incorrectly I either have or can put forward an objective reason as to why that is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
Personally I don't think a Defiant with a DBB is right at all; its about the furthest from canon you can get.

There's the difference -- that's about as far away from objective reasoning as you can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
But this is a game, a game which gives us choices. Considering those choices is up to each individual player, and if they want to use it, don't insult them for it. That's beyond arrogance.
There is such a thing as wrong choices. If I tell you that you have made the wrong choice and let you know why it's not really an insult, it's up to you whether you want to be insulted by it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
I know several players who would disagree. Anything to keep rogue mines off your ***, or photonic fleets from throwing you off, anything to clear the spamfest PVP has become these days is worth looking into.
No, an escort's job is to deliver damage. You're sacrificing significant damage (one weapons slot and one boff station, higher power drain along with the extra power drain that comes with FAW) for a very small amount of spam clearing ability. An eight beam array cruiser running FAW will clear spam eight times better and he will actually increase his DPS in doing so. Given the extent of that disparity, there is no reason for an escort to run FAW from a single rear beam array to clear mines. The very thought is ludicrous.

If you feel that spam is that important, put a chroniton mine in the rear instead. You won't need to waste a boff station and you won't suffer increased power drain. Your DPS will be somewhat weakened as opposed to gimped, and you will contribute to control. Slowing down targets helps you and your team deliver and avoid damage!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
And how else will they learn, pray-tell? I doubt they'll listen to you much, coming across like you're the best damn escort pilot in the game. I'd rather learn by trying it until I get the hang of it, personally. Anyone else see anything wrong with that?
I do. There is a significant amount of bad PvPers out there. I see the same names, and they never seem to get better. Giving bad advice so that people can "learn from it" is asinine. Most likely they won't learn and you will reinforce bad habits. What's so bad about giving them good advice the first time around anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
I may look into replacing APO3 with CRF3, and then HY3 with APO1 and replacing a CRF1 with HY2 just to experiment. If my results are good, I'll give credit where its due, and update the guide to reflect that.
CRF3 is definitely going to be an improvement. You could go a step further and try the build I posted above, replace the beta with a delta if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
No, I'm spreading information that has worked for me and continues to work. What you're claiming is the ONLY way to do it is your way, or that your way is the BEST, which is far worse.
That's the difference between the two of us. You want to give advice based on "what works for you" and "what works for others". A non-ideal build can still appear to work fine even if you can do better. Look at your buddy using the tric mines -- obviously he would be better off with a torp instead. Everything that I'm telling you is based off of objective reasoning, as opposed to blindly pushing opinions with such phrases as "it works for x."

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
just do me a favor and try not to come across so high and mighty about it. Deal?
No deal. I'm offering you the ability to get better. I'm not going to start beating around the bush and honey coating things so it's easier for you to swallow. If you want to get better, take it. If not, leave it. Simple as that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
08-30-2011, 02:59 AM
I'm not going to quote your last post this time because I'm very tired, but I will say the following. You look at STO with the categorization of a typical MMO: DPS/Tank/Healer. That's not how STO works, no matter how hard people try and force it to be. If STO followed that trend, then sci captains would ONLY fly sci ships, tac captains would ONLY fly escorts, and engineers would ONLY fly cruisers, but they don't. This game doesn't force into choosing a dedicated role. Its that freedom that makes STO so dynamic, even with its limited content; a random off the wall build can be used to great success if the pilot knows his build, what it can take, and what it can't. Saying an escort's job is to deal DPS is accurate, but only mostly accurate. I know several cruiser pilots that can out-damage most escort pilots. I know several sci ships that can out-tank several cruisers. Did you ever play Mechwarrior? Probably not, but if you did you'll know there are several ways to fit a 'Mech to do a job, and several ways to do it. To that end, STO has a lot in common with Mechwarrior, aside from the obvious differences between a starship and a 10-story tall 80 ton walking tank... if my build is so wrong, why am I quite often the top DPSer by ALOT in the matches I'm in? If my friend's builds are so wrong, why does our fleet premade do so well against other premades and pugmatches alike? We don't spam ********, we don't Photonic Shockwave our enemies to get a cheap kill, we just work together. We know eachother's strengths, our weaknesses, we communicate. THAT'S what makes a good build. You can have whatever build you want, if you're in a pugmatch versus a premade with any build in an Escort, you're probably screwed. Yes, having a good build does help, but ultimately it comes down to YOU, the pilot, the captain, whatever. For example, your Kling with the PSW + BO3 x2 build you mentioned earlier. You stun me, and instantly I call out on Vent "I'm stunned." You subnuc me, only to find more resistance stacks wrapping up on me then you can beat down with your BO3. And suddenly your alpha is wasted. Just like that. But the inverse is true too; if I'm NOT in my premade, and you do that alpha, I'm probably screwed. But so are most people. Build doesn't matter at that point, whoever your target is is going down. My build works for me because I know it in and out. I know what I can take, and when to rely on my team to help me, and when to disappear. I will try what you suggested, don't worry about that, but I do not and will not ever accept that my build is in any way "Wrong." It may be improvable, but there is always room for improvement, with nearly anything. Just like you said about APB/APO... neither one is "better," they're just different tools. Different applications, different playstyles. I like killing things without a subnuc. Without stunning someone with PSW. I had an MVAM for a while, I tried PSW, it was fun, but to be honest I felt cheap doing it. A magical one button that gives me 4 seconds to do whatever I want to my target? OP. And you know that too, I'm not telling you anything new, but that's how you like to play, so go ahead and play that way. I like to play my way. Your advice, I appreciate. Tomorrow I'll have some free time and I'll put that CRF3 build to the test. I have used Delta on a Fleet Escort before, LOVE the damage resistance boost and debuff. I don't think it'd work on a Defiant because a Defiant can attack stealthily and decisively, giving a target little time to react, while a Fleet/Adv/MVAM loses that element of surprise and get targetted pretty quickly. So as I said, I'm willing to try new things to improve, but I do not accept that my build(s) are wrong, just different. Improvable, maybe. But never outright "wrong."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
08-30-2011, 04:45 AM
Well, dodging the flames, I'd like to add my take on the pocket cruiser. I find it works far, far better with an RSP. That's your "Oh drat and blast I've been hit with a subnuc/multiple alpha strikes" button. The loss of shield resistance from EptS1 and TT1 are mitigated almost 100% for 3 seconds. I fly the FE as an engineer, and the additional captain skills boost it's survivability to very good levels.

I'm also running TT1 x 2, HYT2 x 2, BO3 x 2, and Omega 3.

I usually run 3 DBB and Q torps up front, and 2 BA and Q torps rear, although if I'm facing slower enemies I'll slot two DHC in the front to replace two of the DBBs.

Consoles are +35% shield capacity, Neutronium, and EPS console for engineering, four phaser relays for tactical, and the borg and a halon system in science. I use the borg set, and a resilient capx3 shield.

One on one only a subnuc will shift this ship most of the time, however it doesn't have collosal burst damage, it can throw a BO3 and HY2 every 15 seconds, so in a lot of ways this set up acts more like a DPS cruiser than an escort. It's of more utility in C&H or Ker'rat than Arena since it can act far more independantly than most escorts have the luxury of doing, I've regularly tanked multiple ships with this setup, but the damage done is still a threat to less tanky opponents.

The reason it's mostly beam oriented is because I don't think the FE has the manouverability to reliably target BoPs often enough, and they seem to be what it faces more than anything else. This said, where BoPs are concerned, the damage is more than sufficient (MOST of the time). This is why the DHCs spend most of their time in my inventory, and why I use two copies of beam overload. The Mk XII [acc]x2 Phaser DBB is also an influencing factor however. I know there's some strong opinions on beamscorts, but as an engineer I'm not likely to do collosal damage anyway, but on the other hand, this build needs very little nurturing from a healer unless focused upon.

I'm going to try Delta instead of Omega in the pure beam build as it's not something I'd really considered before, and I'm going to try an officer with TT1, HYT2, Omega1 and CRF3 for when I use the DHCs, although as I said, the FE's not *quite* nible enough to have them targeted a lot of the time as BoPs make up a significant proportion of the ships this build's normally pitted against.

Any thoughts or tips with regards to the above are of course welcome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
08-30-2011, 04:56 AM
This is a good beginning to a tac's understanding of what an escort does....people in my fleet would like to know about this so Imma link this to our forums.... thanks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
09-02-2011, 07:07 PM
I'm glad to see so many people appreciate this guide. Thanks for letting me contribute. =)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
09-03-2011, 02:34 AM
Why do some people use as many DHC as possible, while others use 2 +other weapons?

I remember it used to be bad to use more than 2 DHC, but I thought they changed that.

Thanks
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
09-03-2011, 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyalite
Why do some people use as many DHC as possible, while others use 2 +other weapons?

I remember it used to be bad to use more than 2 DHC, but I thought they changed that.

Thanks
This is done to save skill points. Using DHC's (or other cannons), we don't have to waste skill points on beam weapons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
09-03-2011, 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyalite
Why do some people use as many DHC as possible, while others use 2 +other weapons?

I remember it used to be bad to use more than 2 DHC, but I thought they changed that.

Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatoros View Post
This is done to save skill points. Using DHC's (or other cannons), we don't have to waste skill points on beam weapons.
So there isn't a penalty or anything for using more than 2?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
09-04-2011, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyalite
So there isn't a penalty or anything for using more than 2?
I was wondering this myself.

Also I believe I speak for most of us when I say:

*Instead sticky HERE*

Great guide, thanks for all the time, it's already improved my PvP ability by quite a bit. Though adding tactics for non-Defiants would be nice.
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