Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
08-31-2011, 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Oh, and regardless of my personal ingame relationship with anyone.. If I get positive proof that they exploit double shields or BOs or whatever, I *will* report them myself.

I dont really care about all the combatlogs people post here though, I know next to nothing about using computers. I can still easily copy/paste in a textfile, so it looks like your BOP have 440 shieldfacings.
Just say: Nobody can prove it. Youre not interested in getting information about what happenED in your fleet. You really think, people reporting the bugs, need do fake combat logs? What for? To show CnHFamilia cannot really compete even with those things. I only posted (with screenshots) what I have seen and now your fleeties are flying around with insulting fake chat tells in their chars biography.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock_Monster View Post
As for OPVP tourney rules, I'd rather have to blast through 5 tac teams then not being able to blast at all cause my weapons won't fire at my target.
Nice to read that.
While I have to excuse for RE starting to scramble again even if we dont get scrambeled, just to have some training for the tourney. Sorry.

Making SS a single target skill would be too much of a nerf i guess. It would be fine as it is, if there would be only 1 initial target jump on impact and turn every ship into an enemy with some random holographic shape. If you know your enemies/mates names, you should be fine after the first seconds of confusion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
08-31-2011, 06:29 AM
Sure SS isnt "fun" but it is a necessary evil. Without SS the following happens from a fleet vs fleet standpoint:

-Everyone is always able to do exactly what they want to do = less mistakes
-Less science teams are needed, so science ships will bring more hazards/transfers instead. They will also have more tact teams
-Science ships will have the slot where SS used to be, and will bring more hazards/transfers instead.
-The game will be a healing fest = not fun either

The reason SS III is removed is A) it is definitely the worst when it comes to breaking evasives and B) the commander slot has no heals, so youre not giving much up (CPB does nothing if youre constantly scrambled by the opposing sci ship). It will also allow for perma scrambles with almost no cost (ex. SS II and III youre getting the best versions for only the cost of a shockwave/heal, whereas two SS IIs is not as good and costs you two lvl 3 heals). The reason SS I and SS II are ok are because they have a high opportunity cost.

Clearing SS actually takes some skill and coordination across your team. Unless it is SS III for the reasons above, I find people who ***** about SS might as well be complaining about being shot at. Its the same thing with people who complain about tractor beams. The enemy team is disrupting you and stopping from doing what you want? No way!

Seriously, get four friends, make a premade team (1-2 cruisers, sci ships, escorts). Make sure you have enough sci teams (as well as healing, damage, disruption). Go play the game with teamwork (the way it was meant to be played).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
08-31-2011, 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raphezir View Post
Just say: Nobody can prove it. Youre not interested in getting information about what happenED in your fleet. You really think, people reporting the bugs, need do fake combat logs? What for? To show CnHFamilia cannot really compete even with those things. I only posted (with screenshots) what I have seen and now your fleeties are flying around with insulting fake chat tells in their chars biography.
I am interested in anything you can prove, without a doubt, about those members of my fleet.


Understand my viewpoint:

One person I do not know, say XXX and YYY about a fleetmember of mine.

The fleetmember, which Ive flown with near-daily say this is false.

Who would you believe?


Why would someone post fake combatreports?

The answer is quite simple, they have a personal grudge with either the person or the fleet..

That you refer to my fleet as "CnHFamilia" does indeed suggest that you dont like my fleet particulary much, which makes it all the more clear in my mind that trusting my friends over an complete stranger was a good choice.

And no, ofcourse we cannot compete.. We do not abuse excessive science and heal spam, we do not throw out billions of mines or run 3+ Science ships in premades, we simply play whatever we feel like in that particular moment..

We are casual PvPers, we tried *once* to field a "real" premade and after fighting a TSI team for 20+ minutes with the score being 1-1, we said "Screw this, no fun in PvPing like this"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
08-31-2011, 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Sure SS isnt "fun" but it is a necessary evil. Without SS the following happens from a fleet vs fleet standpoint:

-Everyone is always able to do exactly what they want to do = less mistakes
-Less science teams are needed, so science ships will bring more hazards/transfers instead. They will also have more tact teams
-Science ships will have the slot where SS used to be, and will bring more hazards/transfers instead.
-The game will be a healing fest = not fun either

The reason SS III is removed is A) it is definitely the worst when it comes to breaking evasives and B) the commander slot has no heals, so youre not giving much up (CPB does nothing if youre constantly scrambled by the opposing sci ship). It will also allow for perma scrambles with almost no cost (ex. SS II and III youre getting the best versions for only the cost of a shockwave/heal, whereas two SS IIs is not as good and costs you two lvl 3 heals). The reason SS I and SS II are ok are because they have a high opportunity cost.

Clearing SS actually takes some skill and coordination across your team. Unless it is SS III for the reasons above, I find people who ***** about SS might as well be complaining about being shot at. Its the same thing with people who complain about tractor beams. The enemy team is disrupting you and stopping from doing what you want? No way!

Seriously, get four friends, make a premade team (1-2 cruisers, sci ships, escorts). Make sure you have enough sci teams (as well as healing, damage, disruption). Go play the game with teamwork (the way it was meant to be played).
It doesn't take skill you can clear it if you heal your buddy with science team and your buddy you. Its not a huge skill secret. Fact is that it is a broken skill, and premades should not run into pug groups and use it. I don't care if you through yourselfs SS left and right but the fact is it takes longer and longer to get into a PVP and that is because less and less people are interested.
If that is your Goal or the Goal of QEW then oh well there will be 5 - 10 premades left by the end of the day because people don't want to be scrambled to death.

The sad thing about this is, the skill as it is is broken since a long time has been reported so many times and nothing has been done about it.

SS in a working state would be just fine but it isn't. I see escorts flying around now days using SS....

So but basicly you are saying without SS its harder to win because people don't use their Sciences Teams that much and or heal alot more ? I don't know what science team has to do with hazard emitters but ok, yeah I think its alot harder to fight a good balanced team without SS but for me its more fun even though an Arena takes aobut 40 mins or longer that shows both sides setups where good. There is still other options to win.

But yeah i think its lazy to use 2 x charged particle burst on somebody and then throw out the SS so he can't heal his shields and then simply blow him up.

Fact is its a broken skill and no one in our fleet will use it because it is broken. Fix the issues with evasive and then science team goes else where when selftargeted and put immunity up for 15 seconds afterwards and good is.

But its all good, I won't be around long enough to see the fix because the dark side of the force is calling for me....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
08-31-2011, 07:44 AM
Just going to sum up my reply:

-It takes skill to clear it reliably and efficiently every time.

-There are already too few premades. This has been the case for a year now. Unfortunately players would rather call for nerfs or ***** at teams that actually play together, instead of fixing the problem by setting up a five man team themselves.

-Spoon feeding teams by removing the best harasser in the game does not help anything. If we are going to take harassment skills away because people refuse to bring the counters to it, then there is no point in playing this anyways. Its called adapting.

-If you dont need two science teams for clearing sci debuffs/harassment, then you take one out and put in a Hazard 1 for example. If you now cannot use your SS II, you can throw a TSS III in there instead. Its opportunity cost.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
08-31-2011, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Clearing SS actually takes some skill and coordination across your team. Unless it is SS III for the reasons above, I find people who ***** about SS might as well be complaining about being shot at. Its t
I disagree. The problem is that Scramble Sensors as an effect is simply "unfun". Sure, it's not fun blowing up either, but that is the end result. You are not constantly hating the situation you are in as you are when scrambled.

I have no real issue with people being able to play "perfectly" without scramble sensors. You don't get scrambled in chess, either. I see the issues with Tactical Team and the general healfest STO allows. But if a scramble player would inflict only 50 % damage and provide 50 % healing (or even 0 % healing if you make all targets hostile) the effect could also counter heal-fests.

Stuns and Scrambles are the least fun effects to suffer from, because they take away your control over your character/ship. They might be needed to some extent to keep combat unpredictable and overwhelm your enemies occassionally - but they must be used sparingly and targeted and can't be ubiquitous. Stun has received the appropraite treatment, Scrambles have not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
That you refer to my fleet as "CnHFamilia" does indeed suggest that you dont like my fleet particulary much, which makes it all the more clear in my mind that trusting my friends over an complete stranger was a good choice.
But was it? Just because someone has a grudge doesn't mean he would lie over it.

I have thought about the issue more than I would like to, but I think overall a sensible policy (and it seems to me that is what LF is doing)

0) Remind everyone that using exploits is not okay. If you found one, report it, if you used it for testing purposes, admit to have done so.
1) If you have witnessed it yourself, throw the player out. Or at least give him a "stern warning" and watch his future behavior, demanding a public apology.
2) If you have not witnessed it yourself, inquire the player. If he rejects the claims, you have no choice but to accept that, really. Though you can and should stay vigilant.
If he admits it, demand a public apology and consider the same as when you witnessed it. (Possibly with a higher chance for the player staying within the fleet if he behaves.)
3) To the outside, present yourself as a cohesive unit. You can't throw people out just because someone else has made a claim. If you start doing it, fleet members will feel the fleet doesn't protect its members, and might decide to leave.
Sure, maybe someone people will now believe you are now "clean", but it seems likely that many people will not forget the initial offense either way.

The ideal case would be that the accused publically admits that he used an exploit. But I suspect that at the point of accusations being thrown around, this is unlikely to happen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
08-31-2011, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Just going to sum up my reply:

-It takes skill to clear it reliably and efficiently every time.

-There are already too few premades. This has been the case for a year now. Unfortunately players would rather call for nerfs or ***** at teams that actually play together, instead of fixing the problem by setting up a five man team themselves.

-Spoon feeding teams by removing the best harasser in the game does not help anything. If we are going to take harassment skills away because people refuse to bring the counters to it, then there is no point in playing this anyways. Its called adapting.

-If you dont need two science teams for clearing sci debuffs/harassment, then you take one out and put in a Hazard 1 for example. If you now cannot use your SS II, you can throw a TSS III in there instead. Its opportunity cost.
I know of two ways it can be reliably cleared.

1: Teammember SciTs you

2: You use Evasive/Omega/Deut/EP2E to the edge of the fight, turn camera outward (so no other objects is on screen) and selfheal with SciT.

First option requires you to have a teammember with SciT, the other is reliable, but takes a few moments.

If you know of other ways to reliably clear it, Id love to learn.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
08-31-2011, 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

But was it? Just because someone has a grudge doesn't mean he would lie over it.

I have thought about the issue more than I would like to, but I think overall a sensible policy (and it seems to me that is what LF is doing)

0) Remind everyone that using exploits is not okay. If you found one, report it, if you used it for testing purposes, admit to have done so.
1) If you have witnessed it yourself, throw the player out. Or at least give him a "stern warning" and watch his future behavior, demanding a public apology.
2) If you have not witnessed it yourself, inquire the player. If he rejects the claims, you have no choice but to accept that, really. Though you can and should stay vigilant.
If he admits it, demand a public apology and consider the same as when you witnessed it. (Possibly with a higher chance for the player staying within the fleet if he behaves.)
3) To the outside, present yourself as a cohesive unit. You can't throw people out just because someone else has made a claim. If you start doing it, fleet members will feel the fleet doesn't protect its members, and might decide to leave.
Sure, maybe someone people will now believe you are now "clean", but it seems likely that many people will not forget the initial offense either way.

The ideal case would be that the accused publically admits that he used an exploit. But I suspect that at the point of accusations being thrown around, this is unlikely to happen.
No, ofcourse everyone with a grudge wont go around faking evidence, I have however seen many times (Ive been playing online for many years) how people will photoshop pictures, either to present themselves better, or to discredit someone else..

My point is, I dont rule anything out.. If I need to choose between the word of a friend and the word of a stranger, I will trust the friend every time.

And yes, I did ask the person in question about it, and he said there were no basis in the accusations. Until I see undisputable proof otherwise, that is good enough for me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
08-31-2011, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stegi
Its funny how everyone knows its broken and how bad it is but yet all of your guys fleeties use it. I see SOB, TSI, QEW, 7th Core, 528th, 3rd, LF, Lore, and many more and itstead of decreasing it it shows up increased.
Its amazing to me when you get thanked by pugs or other people after a match when in with a premade for not using SS. Guess what the game does work without it quiet nicely. But when i read these awesome Tournament rules where SS3 is forbidden but SS2 and 1 is ok to use makes me just laugh.

What do you see in PVP now days ? Plenty of Science, plenty of SS and you guys wonder why the PVP community is decreasing in numbers and why people don't play PVP anymore. Because they are sick of getting scrambled to death comined with subnukes and other spam. Good thing it really doesn't concern me anymore because very soon my sub is out an i m gone well actually our 25member fleet will be gone from the game but thats a different story.
While I can't speak for the rest of SOB, I abhor Scramble and will not use it. Haven't used it in months and refuse to use it. That being said, other people in SOB use it. While I don't advocate it, far be it from my place to say, "Hey, stop using Scramble. Some people hate it."

But we DO usually run Sci-heavy teams, whether it's Sci captains or Sci ships... SOB stands for "Science or Bust" after all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
08-31-2011, 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

Stuns and Scrambles are the least fun effects to suffer from, because they take away your control over your character/ship.
And this attitude right here is the issue. Welcome to every game ever created. It is also not "fun" to watch your base get rushed in an RTS game when you have no units out yourself. It is also not "fun" to get projectiled all day against a keep away character as a rushdown character in a fighting game. It is also not "fun" to get flashbanged for 4 seconds and popped in the head in an FPS.

But it is part of the game, and these are all things opponents do to you to make your game harder. If they are frustrating you and making you have no fun (through legitimate tactics), GOOD. They did their job.

Seriously, I run up against TSI in an escort/bird, and they tractor me, shockwave me, target my engines, etc. immediately. I see half their players switch to me the second im in range/decloaked. Do i *****? No. I change my build to counter what theyre doing to me. I adapt. And I have teammates to cover me as well (and if I run into them while Im alone pugging, that is MY fault if I went in without a team and are scrambled all game).

Honestly, ive never seen a game where people want their hand held the entire time like they do in this one. There are counters to SS, and when you DO clear it, you know that the opposing team just wasted a high lvl healing sci slot for nothing, and are now weaker defensively. There are counters to 5 man premade teams - bring your own.

Though I agree that the timer on SS should be lowered, we have to deal with it the way it is.

Long story short, deal with it. Thats the whole point of the ability.
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