Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
08-31-2011, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Sure SS isnt "fun" but it is a necessary evil. Without SS the following happens from a fleet vs fleet standpoint:
Most of us have no problem with SS.. with the exception of 1 basic thing that has yet to be addressed.. period

You can not take it off yourself nearly 75% of the time, because your "counter" goes off to some random ship or object. A power that makes it so you can not even target yourself.. that is a problem.

Counters have to work, or there is no point to them.

Get rid of that issue, and SS is fine, as far as I am concerned.

But until that time, don't exaggerate the issue as "I find people who ***** about SS might as well be complaining about being shot at.".

Counters have to work, or they have no purpose. A power that can counter the counter that is made to counter it.. yeah.... bad game design.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
08-31-2011, 08:20 AM
See: Melines post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
08-31-2011, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
I know of two ways it can be reliably cleared.

1: Teammember SciTs you
Even this is not so reliable. I have done this plenty of times for my teammates, only to have my target switch as I activate the power, beaming my science team to some nearby mine.

Broken.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
08-31-2011, 08:25 AM
Sorry, but I am able to heal teammates 100% of the time while scrambled. Same with my teammates.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 45
08-31-2011, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
And this attitude right here is the issue. Welcome to every game ever created. It is also not "fun" to watch your base get rushed in an RTS game when you have no units out yourself. It is also not "fun" to get projectiled all day against a keep away character as a rushdown character in a fighting game. It is also not "fun" to get flashbanged for 4 seconds and popped in the head in an FPS.

But it is part of the game, and these are all things opponents do to you to make your game harder. If they are frustrating you and making you have no fun (through legitimate tactics), GOOD. They did their job.

Seriously, I run up against TSI in an escort/bird, and they tractor me, shockwave me, target my engines, etc. immediately. I see half their players switch to me the second im in range/decloaked. Do i *****? No. I change my build to counter what theyre doing to me. I adapt. And I have teammates to cover me as well (and if I run into them while Im alone pugging, that is MY fault if I went in without a team and are scrambled all game).

Honestly, ive never seen a game where people want their hand held the entire time like they do in this one. There are counters to SS, and when you DO clear it, you know that the opposing team just wasted a high lvl healing sci slot for nothing, and are now weaker defensively. There are counters to 5 man premade teams - bring your own.

Though I agree that the timer on SS should be lowered, we have to deal with it the way it is.

Long story short, deal with it. Thats the whole point of the ability.
I see where you are coming it is the only ability in the game when used in conjunction with other CC skills you need 5 powers to counter. 5 people SS 5 people need ST there is no way around that unless of course you advocating everyone to carry at least 1 ST. Well great but you know what once you fire off that ST guess what gets fired off from ship 2 another SS. Beagles I agree that there should not be any hand holding but when 2-3 sci ships can effectively keep a team of 5 pretty much scrambled at will there is a balance issue. Right now Science reigns supreme it is the only class that has the least amount of hard counters, to kill a cruiser you need science, to kill an escort use science and the fact that they keep adding low to no skill point items like pengs and LOLspread and FaW sci is the king of the hill. SNB no hard counter once SNBed no more buffs, VM just wait ET just restores down Subsystem, PSW does have Aux2ID but you need ESP to use it I know i am missing a few. Yeah i know Sci has no damage and no hull healing but really now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
08-31-2011, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Sorry, but I am able to heal teammates 100% of the time while scrambled. Same with my teammates.
I am a full time healer. It is all I do.

Sorry, but it must be nice to live in a magical land where it works 100% of the time for you... but the truth is I have had it switch off of teammates more times than I can count. The target switching gets ridiculous. You can't even target yourself well.

If you think this does not happen... You are wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
08-31-2011, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
And this attitude right here is the issue. Welcome to every game ever created. It is also not "fun" to watch your base get rushed in an RTS game when you have no units out yourself. It is also not "fun" to get projectiled all day against a keep away character as a rushdown character in a fighting game. It is also not "fun" to get flashbanged for 4 seconds and popped in the head in an FPS.

But it is part of the game, and these are all things opponents do to you to make your game harder. If they are frustrating you and making you have no fun (through legitimate tactics), GOOD. They did their job.

Seriously, I run up against TSI in an escort/bird, and they tractor me, shockwave me, target my engines, etc. immediately. I see half their players switch to me the second im in range/decloaked. Do i *****? No. I change my build to counter what theyre doing to me. I adapt. And I have teammates to cover me as well (and if I run into them while Im alone pugging, that is MY fault if I went in without a team and are scrambled all game).

Honestly, ive never seen a game where people want their hand held the entire time like they do in this one. There are counters to SS, and when you DO clear it, you know that the opposing team just wasted a high lvl healing sci slot for nothing, and are now weaker defensively. There are counters to 5 man premade teams - bring your own.

Though I agree that the timer on SS should be lowered, we have to deal with it the way it is.

Long story short, deal with it. Thats the whole point of the ability.
So basicly you say its not broken. Its fine as it is and people deal with it ? I m sure that kind of attitude is the problem why less and less pugs pvp, people log out when they are whopped or simply warp out when they encounter a premade.

But i just point out a few things i will play a bit more pvp until beta starts and then i m outta here =P.
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# 48
08-31-2011, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
And this attitude right here is the issue. Welcome to every game ever created. It is also not "fun" to watch your base get rushed in an RTS game when you have no units out yourself. It is also not "fun" to get projectiled all day against a keep away character as a rushdown character in a fighting game. It is also not "fun" to get flashbanged for 4 seconds and popped in the head in an FPS.
There are some similarities and some differences. But you might notice that I am not playing an FPS or RTS here, so it could very well be that I don't care for games like that in the first place? (And I definitely am not a fan f the "Zerg" rush so many RTS games allow as well.)

Quote:
But it is part of the game, and these are all things opponents do to you to make your game harder. If they are frustrating you and making you have no fun (through legitimate tactics), GOOD. They did their job.

Seriously, I run up against TSI in an escort/bird, and they tractor me, shockwave me, target my engines, etc. immediately. I see half their players switch to me the second im in range/decloaked. Do i *****? No. I change my build to counter what theyre doing to me. I adapt. And I have teammates to cover me as well (and if I run into them while Im alone pugging, that is MY fault if I went in without a team and are scrambled all game).
I am not exactly whining and giving up when I get scrambled either. I just recognize that the effect is particularly frustrating compared to plenty of others, also powerful and useful effects.

I am looking at this from a game design perspective - sure, the current power works, but is there a way to make the game a more enjoyable experience? And I think there absolutely is.

Quote:
Though I agree that the timer on SS should be lowered, we have to deal with it the way it is.
This is a good, alternative solution to the power. But it implies to me that the power is problematic even in your eyes. So what are we disagreeing about?
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# 49
08-31-2011, 08:43 AM
Beagles you are also forgetting to mention that one ship can scramble 2 to 3 ships at a time pretty reliably, with subsequent scrambles capable of the same, with it's supposed counter skill being on a 30 second timer.

Unless your sci teams work in an AOE over there in QEW (in which case how do I get in?), you aren't going to be able to reliably clear all of the scrambles, typically inflicted in a given match, and that's not factoring in the horrid target jumping, which is so bad that the skill can actually target someone you aren't even targeting in the UI.

I have been prepped to throw sci team to the Heal Cruiser before, had him targeted the entire time, thrown the sci team, and have it land on either someone else, an npc or worse the enemy team. Without the Target selection ever changing.

Having been on both ends of a Perma Scramble, I can safely say it's not fun. For anyone involved. For the team doing the Perma Scrambles, (especially when everyone is fully specced for it) you're systematically locking down the enemy team, and denying them the ability to even mount any kind of serious counter offensive. Half the time the dps dealers can't even stay on the same target they started their Alphas on.

For the guy on the receiving end, you're locked down effectively, for longer than it takes to be killed.
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Posts: 120
# 50
08-31-2011, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
And this attitude right here is the issue. Welcome to every game ever created. It is also not "fun" to watch your base get rushed in an RTS game when you have no units out yourself. It is also not "fun" to get projectiled all day against a keep away character as a rushdown character in a fighting game. It is also not "fun" to get flashbanged for 4 seconds and popped in the head in an FPS.

But it is part of the game, and these are all things opponents do to you to make your game harder. If they are frustrating you and making you have no fun (through legitimate tactics), GOOD. They did their job.
None of the things you mentioned are particularly bad. You might lose, but it's over quickly.

Long duration CC is pretty much just an MMO problem, and it's one that players always gripe about, and it usually gets adjusted for PvP. Most players can deal with effects that last 5 seconds or less, and 10 seconds isn't awful for fragile CC. But SS lasts around 30 seconds and counters it's own counter.

Situations like that have existed in other MMOs, but they suck, they get nerved, and they drive players away.

If STO's PvP were vibrant and healthy despite SS, then you could argue that it's fine as-is. But right now PvP is nearly dead, so you can't argue that things which drive players away are good for the game.

Quote:
Seriously, I run up against TSI in an escort/bird, and they tractor me, shockwave me, target my engines, etc. immediately. I see half their players switch to me the second im in range/decloaked. Do i *****? No. I change my build to counter what theyre doing to me. I adapt. And I have teammates to cover me as well (and if I run into them while Im alone pugging, that is MY fault if I went in without a team and are scrambled all game).
Any ability which one player can use that takes a team to counter is a bad ability.

The counter-mobility tactics you describe require a coordinated team to be effective, and the fact is that you can still counter it as a single player in a PUG. If you just run a hyper-impulse engine at high power then you will go most of the way to keeping mobility, and Aux to Dampeners, EM, and APO all help a lot too.

With SS there's nothing you can do to counter it, you need to rely on someone else to use ST on you, and hope they don't get a target flip while doing it.

Quote:
Honestly, ive never seen a game where people want their hand held the entire time like they do in this one. There are counters to SS, and when you DO clear it, you know that the opposing team just wasted a high lvl healing sci slot for nothing, and are now weaker defensively. There are counters to 5 man premade teams - bring your own.
It doesn't take a 5 man team to use SS.

It's one of those abilities that lets one player be more effective then they ought to be alone. One person can make a whole team burn ST, and while it takes no coordination to scramble the enemy team, you need to plan who clears whom or else somebody will be left scrambled.
Quote:
Though I agree that the timer on SS should be lowered, we have to deal with it the way it is.

Long story short, deal with it. Thats the whole point of the ability.
I don't mind having to deal with it, I just want the ability to deal with it. I generally have a ST available on most of my toons, so if that just worked reliably I'd probably be fine. I kind of think the duration of the scramble is too long, but if I could just clear SS reliably I couldn't complain too much if it lasted a long time.

Give SS a reliable counter, and much of the complaint about it would vanish
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