Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
09-03-2011, 05:53 AM
There should be a level cap for F2P players. Possibly Commander or even Lt. Commander. After which a person would need to buy a subscription to advance further.

F2P should only be a teaser. It should bring people to the game and wet their appetite just a little, At some point they'll almost certainly have to buy a subscription if they decide they like the game and want to advance.

That would be the smart way to incorporate F2P to the game. That would have little impact on PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
09-03-2011, 07:27 AM
I think this F2P thing will me most dramatic for the PvP'ers here. We should all meet up again in SWTOR when its released. I will make the OrganizedPVP channel :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
09-03-2011, 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
I was a much better "twitchy" gamer at 12 than I am now. Heck I was a much better "twitchy" gamer at under ten. The days of flipping Defender on Atari et al ...
Adults can be trained into the "twitchy" part, it's just not where they start. I train people 18 and up in active skills in the real world, and the only adults I've encountered that can't work their reaction times down burned out on drugs when they were younger (not implying that you did that at all, I'm just saying you can probably learn to "twitch"). As an adult it just seems hard because most have been away from activities that require quick reactions for so long that they forget their initial failures.

I'm not sure how much an advantage twitch gaming would be in STO though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
09-03-2011, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

A lot has been said about D&D 4 focus on actual "game balance" was "videogamey" or "like an MMO", but it seems, the reality is very far from the truth and if D&D 4 is "videogamey", than it only copies from the best.
4th edition was just like playing an MMO, but really slowly. Any time a problem would come up I'd think of how to solve it, and then realize I didn't have any buttons I could press which would do that. It was everything that sucks about MMOs with nothing good about tabletop games.

i'd rather play a game with less-specific and less-blanced powers and classes, but have a game-master with good judgement. If I have a character that wants to hamstring an opponent, or bash them with the pommel of a sword or whatever, I ought to be able to try it whether my class gets a specific button for it or not. Most of the buttons in 4th edition are just combat tactics, so by choosing a class and choosing your buttons you put yourself on a rail that you can't leave.

It might make for a good MMO, but it's pretty horrible as tabletop roleplaying goes. The whole point to tabletop games is that they are much more flexible than other sorts of RPGs. 4th edition DnD might as well be a miniature game or a video game.

/rant
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
09-03-2011, 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
4th edition was just like playing an MMO, but really slowly. Any time a problem would come up I'd think of how to solve it, and then realize I didn't have any buttons I could press which would do that. It was everything that sucks about MMOs with nothing good about tabletop games.

i'd rather play a game with less-specific and less-blanced powers and classes, but have a game-master with good judgement. If I have a character that wants to hamstring an opponent, or bash them with the pommel of a sword or whatever, I ought to be able to try it whether my class gets a specific button for it or not. Most of the buttons in 4th edition are just combat tactics, so by choosing a class and choosing your buttons you put yourself on a rail that you can't leave.

It might make for a good MMO, but it's pretty horrible as tabletop roleplaying goes. The whole point to tabletop games is that they are much more flexible than other sorts of RPGs. 4th edition DnD might as well be a miniature game or a video game.

/rant
Yay! Finally some edition warring possibilities.

Just last week, in my D&D 4 campaign, the entire game was about one character being basically forced into marriage because he was the only "compatible" mate for the Princess. :p It was hilarious seeing the player and the character trying to wind themselves out of that one (especially since he already considered working to become a King in the future - except this wasn't the terms he wanted it to be on. And I suppose that little vision with his firstborn was frightening him a little as well.)

So, D&D 4 gives me the best potential - I can get a GM that can focus entirely on the story (or, as in this case, be that GM), as he doesn't have to think about how to "balance" the Half-Elf Bard/Rogue Multiclass vs the tweaked outed Barbarian/Fighter and the CoDzilla. I get awesome stories and complex tactical combats, two of the best things about RPGs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
09-03-2011, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Yay! Finally some edition warring possibilities.

Just last week, in my D&D 4 campaign, the entire game was about one character being basically forced into marriage because he was the only "compatible" mate for the Princess. :p It was hilarious seeing the player and the character trying to wind themselves out of that one (especially since he already considered working to become a King in the future - except this wasn't the terms he wanted it to be on. And I suppose that little vision with his firstborn was frightening him a little as well.)

So, D&D 4 gives me the best potential - I can get a GM that can focus entirely on the story (or, as in this case, be that GM), as he doesn't have to think about how to "balance" the Half-Elf Bard/Rogue Multiclass vs the tweaked outed Barbarian/Fighter and the CoDzilla. I get awesome stories and complex tactical combats, two of the best things about RPGs.
Pretty much this.

And yes it can be a royal pain in the *** of trying to balance all that out. And yes Pathfinder is just as borked as 3e was. When I realized I spent more time coming up with counters to my munchkin players codzilla and wizards than I did actual story prep, I pretty much walked away from 3e. I'd been playing other rpgs, for the last 2 years before 4e came out. It came out and I was pleased. Now I can actually focus on story telling, and npc mannerisms etc rather than "what excuse am I going to give this week why Borked I Win Buttons 1-2340 don't work".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
09-03-2011, 12:04 PM
Okay, let's get back to our regularly scheduled PvP and F2P thread, before this thread goes to Ten Forward for excessive RP. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
09-03-2011, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Yay! Finally some edition warring possibilities.

Just last week, in my D&D 4 campaign, the entire game was about one character being basically forced into marriage because he was the only "compatible" mate for the Princess. :p It was hilarious seeing the player and the character trying to wind themselves out of that one (especially since he already considered working to become a King in the future - except this wasn't the terms he wanted it to be on. And I suppose that little vision with his firstborn was frightening him a little as well.)
Honestly I've yet to see a 4th edition game that involved role-playing. Whenever I've tried it the party conversation always ends up sounding like doing a raid in WoW. The game is focused on mechanics.



One of the most fun characters I've ever played was in the old Marvel Superheroes RPG from the late 80s (still one of my favorite RPGs). The character was more-or-less a copy of She-Hulk as far as powers, but the I played her with a very abrasive personality, kind of like the stereotypical jock from high-school movies. In fights she would normally jump right into the middle, insult any opponents that made mistakes, and try to call out whichever enemy looked toughest. If a melee-fighter tried to get past her, she'd grapple them and hall them back. If one enemy was particular dangerous she might try to hold them in a 1-1 fight while her team dealt with the weaker enemies.

She made a point to talk to reporters and mug for the cameras whenever she could, and actually came off as friendly and heroic, which really annoyed people that knew her away from the cameras. She got into the unlimited wrestling league, and did pretty well there, managing to get herself on talk shows and posters. Because she went out of her way to make herself a star, she was the one person on the team that most opponents would recognize, and most figured her for being just empty hype. So even when she wasn't trying to draw fire, she'd end up taking the first hit, because so many people really wanted to put her in her place.

In 4th edition DnD you just need a taunt button to do that.

Things like taunting, inspiring comrades, or assisting in an attack ought to be role-played. If the game master is role-playing the enemies, then he'll decide when they break with the plan because they really want to shut someone up -- you don't need a game mechanic for that.





As a player it takes me days to even make a character for 4th edition DnD. My problem is that I usually have a character concept before I even crack open the book. Where the gears grind to a halt though is that every class railroads you into certain gear and style choices. So you have to chose your role (tank/heal/DPS) first, then chose you class, then fill in personality and background to fit.

My first time playing 4th edition I tried to adapt a second edition the rest of the party talked me into adapting a fighter/swashbuckler character I had played in 2nd edition. Big mistake. Number one problem is that there really isn't a way to make an agility/intelligence fighter in light armor with light weapons in 4th edition -- the class is aimed at heavy armor, heavy weapons, and tanking. Ranger might have worked for tactics, but there was nothing 'outdoorsy' about the character. I think I needed up making the character as a thief but just avoiding using thief abilities.

The next problem is that the game pretty much ground to a stop whenever I tried to do something. There is no 'slide down the banister' button. Nor is there a 'cut the guard's belt so he has trouble moving' button. I ended up dumping the character that night, since there was just no way to make it work with the buttons available.

My second attempt was a Warlord. I had planned the character as just a basic fighter, but one who relied more on experience than brute force, which kind of pushed him into the Warlord zone. But the buffs were a little to magical to me (though I tried to play them out like the character was doing something other than pushing a button). The healing part just completely broke immersion to me, but I had to do it because the party needed it, so after a couple of sessions I just stopped playing the game.

The thing that bugs me is that I could play any edition of DnD and get much more flexible character creation. In the older games a lot of what is turned into powers in 4th edition is just left up to role-play, and the result is a lot more fun. Not everything works every time, but if you want to play a character with a certain set of tactics there's nothing stopping you.


Quote:
So, D&D 4 gives me the best potential - I can get a GM that can focus entirely on the story (or, as in this case, be that GM), as he doesn't have to think about how to "balance" the Half-Elf Bard/Rogue Multiclass vs the tweaked outed Barbarian/Fighter and the CoDzilla. I get awesome stories and complex tactical combats, two of the best things about RPGs.
If you're worried about balance, just don't allow certain things. (To be fair, I kind of avoided 3rd edition DnD because of balance issues, so maybe that can't be balanced).

I never really got to the stories in 4th edition. As I said, I never really got a character concept funneled through character creation in a playable state.

I did kind of enjoy the combat as a miniatures game, but it was not at all immersive. I can run a whole party through a 4th edition combat as long as I keep cards for the different buttons on each character.

It actually reminded me a whole lot of Battletech. If it were made up as just a miniatures game, I'd be fine with it. Heck, I'd probably have more fun playing a whole party.

Honestly 4th edition DnD is my least favorite RPG, just because it's so inflexible. The character classes fit like straight-jackets, you only get a few buttons to use, and at certain levels you get stuck choosing between buttons that don't make any sense for your character. As a player, I'd prefer if I didn't have to focus on game-mechanics so much. I can respect the system's balance, and it would be fine for an MMO, but MMOs are designed to funnel players down a single path, and there's virtually no role-playing in MMOs, so the MMO style really doesn't work in a table-top RPG.

Rifts is the very least balanced RPG I've ever seen, but it's a lot more fun. As long as the game-master or party vetoes anything dramatically over-powered or underpowered balance isn't too awful, and the system allows you to do whatever you can imagine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
09-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
Honestly I've yet to see a 4th edition game that involved role-playing. Whenever I've tried it the party conversation always ends up sounding like doing a raid in WoW. The game is focused on mechanics.
Admittedly, I have no idea how WoW Raid sound like. I suspect not like my games do, though I wouldn't claim t be a good DM.

Quote:
In 4th edition DnD you just need a taunt button to do that.
But it's more than that - the enemy can choose to ignore it. If he rather wants to go after a squisher target or the person he is set out to kill for personal reasons, he can do so. There are consequences for that, sure, but that makes it even more meaningful to me. "THis NPC hates you so much he ignores everyone else, even though it hurts him".

Quote:
My first time playing 4th edition I tried to adapt a second edition the rest of the party talked me into adapting a fighter/swashbuckler character I had played in 2nd edition.
Big mistake. Number one problem is that there really isn't a way to make an agility/intelligence fighter in light armor with light weapons in 4th edition -- the class is aimed at heavy armor, heavy weapons, and tanking. Ranger might have worked for tactics, but there was nothing 'outdoorsy' about the character. I think I needed up making the character as a thief but just avoiding using thief abilities.
What was wrong with the Rogue?
But even if that didn't work for you - how would you have done it with AD&D without the swashbuckler? Isn't it ultimately a matter of whether the class exists in a class based system?

Quote:
The next problem is that the game pretty much ground to a stop whenever I tried to do something. There is no 'slide down the banister' button. Nor is there a 'cut the guard's belt so he has trouble moving' button. I ended up dumping the character that night, since there was just no way to make it work with the buttons available.
The famous p.42 of the Dungeon's Master Guides has all the tools to allow this stuff. The values for that are even on the DM table. Of course I agree that it's a trap many players fall into, just looking at their powers and thinking that is all that they can do.

Quote:
If you're worried about balance, just don't allow certain things. (To be fair, I kind of avoided 3rd edition DnD because of balance issues, so maybe that can't be balanced).
I love it that I can tell my players before the start of the campaign: Anything goes. Pick any class, any race, it will work (at least for me). The only limits I might need to give are stuff that doesn't fit (maybe Warforged don't fit in my campaign or something like that. Though I prefer to have it all allowed normally, and make the out-of-the-ordinary stuff just work)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
09-03-2011, 01:54 PM
I'm pretty sure I could build a strong Str and Dex light armor wearing fighter in 4e, that uses a Rapier. And that's without touching the Rogue. (who is still the Light armor fighter)

Though part of it, you can't look at class names and go "that is not him" you make the character first, then pick the class. Martial classes, are basically the old fighter archetypes split up so that each one can be more effective than the at best sub optimal choice, and at worst, completely unworkable concept in tougher campaigns.

Also, HP has always been incredibly abstract, when I read the "warlord has heals and I"m like wtf" type comments I can't help but ask "and yet you never questioned why you are fine at 100 percent, and 1hp, but suddenly you drop at 0 with no degradation?"

The warlord is like your team captain in pvp. A good one, can rally the team and make everyone try just that much harder, and stay willing to give it their best. :p (course there's also the semi reckless one in martial power that leads the team from the front, and through his sheer brass pair, everyone fights harder...)

Also as mustrum says, pg42 helps -alot- there. There weren't actual rules for dropping a guards pants in any D&D. Why think there would be a hard and set one now? Only before it really was pure dm fiat to make it work. Now at least, there are guidelines in the dmg for even an inexperienced dm to figure it out and keep the game going without any significant pause. I blame your dm for not reading the material.

back on the superior balance. The only way to really gaurantee no one would throw down munchkinism in pre 4e was to just flat out ban casters. They really did have -that- many ways to I Win it. Even non combat. Unfortunately doing so also denied you access as a DM to many of the more fun monsters and encounter types, unless you spent an unnecessary amount of time compensating for Bob the fighter, Tim the Rogue, and Jimmy the ranger being your party.
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