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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
09-08-2011, 07:44 AM
http://zeta-aquilae.net/Test/Shield.ods

Thats all you need to know.
The Borg shield will outrun Aegis after about 30 seconds. Before that, you gain a bit of advantage by the capacity for alpha strikes, and CPB's etcetera. It doesnt matter whether you run 125 power or 50 power, the regen will both scale down evenly with the shields. So theoretically its b*llshyte that Borg should have more shieldpower to be effective compared to Aegis. They both give the same extra SDR (shield damage reduction) and regeneration increase when increasing the power level.

But ofcourse the higher your powerlevel, the more you 'compensate' especially on the borg shield for the somewhat 'lower' capacity etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc............................Shield Damage Reduction. You can also compensate for the lower capacity with other means, especially escorts can make good use of 2 Tactical Teams if they are constantly being fired upon.

Ofcourse 6142 capacity per facing for borg shield versus 8108 per facing for Aegis difference doesnt look much, its still reasonably considerable in the first 30 seconds of sustained damage taken. For a full shield with 4 facings it would mean; 24568 versus 32432 from the start with shields fully up and going into battle. Since you can distribute your shield facings the capacity with a covariant is considered to be much more valueable because you will notice a less significant drop in the first half minute of a battle; After that, you get much more dependent on External heal abilities, which is neither good for you, nor for the team.

Because of all this, its a little more difficult to handle a borg/regenerative shield mainly, because your hull will be exposed in a faster pace. Thats why people always have the quick urge to use the covariant because it 'feels' better. Even Stoked calls Covariant the 'master of all shields'. Don't be misled by this; its an old episode, they even talk about Shield Power Level can be set low on a covariant becuase its a bad regeneration shield; It is true, but at the time of creating that episode I believe there was no such thing as increased SDR by increasing the power level. And even so, the regeneration of a Covariant might be lower but its still there; So even for covariant users its pretty much better for all factors to keep your shield power as high as possible.


But, this doesnt necessarily mean that Regeneratives are superior in every situation; Especially hit and run BoP's have much more advantage with a Cov shield +35 Capacity console. But franky, thats about it.

If you plainly compare Aegis versus Borg, taking all the odds with us, the Borg shield is superior.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
09-08-2011, 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
Yes, I can.

I do all the time.
Unless they synchronize that alpha strike with a shield strip and/or stun, right?

Look guys, whether regen or cap is more valuable depends on a few things:
  • What ship you are flying
  • What power settings you are running
  • How shield healing your side brings
  • How much shield stripping the other team brings

In most premade setups, I still see cap as being more important. Resilients offer a pretty strong mix right now as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
09-08-2011, 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Unless they synchronize that alpha strike with a shield strip and/or stun, right?

Look guys, whether regen or cap is more valuable depends on a few things:
  • What ship you are flying
  • What power settings you are running
  • How shield healing your side brings
  • How much shield stripping the other team brings

In most premade setups, I still see cap as being more important. Resilients offer a pretty strong mix right now as well.
Like the other guy said, Covs are better for defense against bursts, but thats it.. In extended fights Borg shields win out by a huge margin, after 30 secs, the total shield of the two types are identical, and the longer you stay in a fight, the more the Borg shields pull their weight.

It doesnt take into account that a ship with Borg shields will aim for as high a powerlevel as they can.. This means a higher resist, and thus, more effective use of the facings.

I mean:

When I ran Covariants on my Defiant, I had my power settings at 100-25-50-25. With the Borg shield I run 100-50-25-25, along with + shield items (+10 on gear and possibly a +7 console) Youre looking at 40-50 points of difference in effective shield power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
09-08-2011, 08:36 AM
I honestly cant believe they nerfed down Covariants ever further with Season 4. They were already too much overrated, now they are even worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
When I ran Covariants on my Defiant, I had my power settings at 100-25-50-25. With the Borg shield I run 100-50-25-25, along with + shield items (+10 on gear and possibly a +7 console) Youre looking at 40-50 points of difference in effective shield power.
Well It doesnt matter whether you are using Aegis or Borg with your shields on 50 or 125. They both got the exact same benefit from the powerlevel in means of Shield Resistance (or SDR) and both get quadruple of their rated regen. But yeah even if a newb would just look at the raw stats of both shields, you can see that the slighty higher capacity from the Aegis can in no way compete with the more then double increase of regeneration with the borgs.

On my Lollaron'PWNy I dont even make use of a +35 capacity console with my Borg shield, how's that mh? :p I firmly believe in resistance and long-term survivability rather then protecting myself from big burst attacks, which can be compensated with alot of things. Therefore i would probably go with a +7 Shield console before the +35 console; Still people state this console is a must have for any ship. I incline to disagree. But I do also believe in a modular ship, geared depending on the situation. When I fight another tactical in a 1 on 1, it might be good to use a +35 capacity console. But i would never give up my Borg shield for it.

And last but not least, I firmly believe that peeps running Covariant (And do not use BoP hit and run tactics) require too much external healing, which cannot be a good thing for a team, or premade even.


kthxbye.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
09-08-2011, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Unless they synchronize that alpha strike with a shield strip and/or stun, right?
That depends.

Sure, and If I am attacked by 5 players spamming PS and SS and SNB and CPB and everything else at the same time.. then it fails as well.

Honestly, if you are looking for a scenario where something fails, I can make one for anything.

Covariants begin to fail after around 30-40 seconds of sustained combat.

As a healer, I can tell who is using what, by the condition of the shield arcs, over time. Regen shield users will typically have 4 full or mostly full facings.

Covarients often have 4 half dead or lower arcs and take more shield repairs than anybody to stabilize.

That other advantage of the regen shield is that you are more likely to get a shield up for a torpedo hit, than covariant. Also, with Tac Team, regen shields shine, as all the increased regen from the other arcs is being pumped into the facing being hit.

Overall, the regen shield is better for the long haul.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
09-08-2011, 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfader1988
And last but not least, I firmly believe that peeps running Covariant (And do not use BoP hit and run tactics) require too much external healing, which cannot be a good thing for a team, or premade even.
/Quoted for truth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
09-08-2011, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
After 30 secs, the total shield of the two types are identical, and the longer you stay in a fight, the more the Borg shields pull their weight.
Absolute and total *garbage*. That number is about as relevant as Dstahl's promises (not relevant at all). The majority of shield heals on any team that isn't completely worthless do not come from regen, they come from actual healing.

Even if you grant a complete vacuum of healing, your graph is not a real representation of STO mechanics. You can't just take the initial capacity and add regeneration infinitely past that point ignoring the cap. You don't actually regenerate shields unless those shields take damage, so you would need to model that in. The greater the rate that you take damage the more valuable that capacity becomes, and vice-versa.

Ignoring all of the flaws of your simplistic model though, let's look at the fact that you see covariants as being better for the first 30 seconds of a fight. What you haven't considered is that every time your team restores your shields that 30s timer is essentially restarted. A competent team is going to fully restore your shields *far* more often than every 30 seconds. According to your own logic covariant shields are better 100% of the time in a properly set up team :p

Low shield capacity doesn't just make you susceptible to burst and shield stripping, it also wastes heals. Throwing a meaty extend, tss, or sci team on a target with low shield capacity runs the very significant risk of over-healing that target.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
09-08-2011, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Absolute and total *garbage*. That number is about as relevant as Dstahl's promises (not relevant at all). The majority of shield heals on any team that isn't completely worthless do not come from regen, they come from actual healing.

Even if you grant a complete vacuum of healing, your graph is not a real representation of STO mechanics. You can't just take the initial capacity and add regeneration infinitely past that point ignoring the cap. You don't actually regenerate shields unless those shields take damage, so you would need to model that in. The greater the rate that you take damage the more valuable that capacity becomes, and vice-versa.

Ignoring all of the flaws of your simplistic model though, let's look at the fact that you see covariants as being better for the first 30 seconds of a fight. What you haven't considered is that every time your team restores your shields that 30s timer is essentially restarted. A competent team is going to fully restore your shields *far* more often than every 30 seconds. According to your own logic covariant shields are better 100% of the time in a properly set up team :p

Low shield capacity doesn't just make you susceptible to burst and shield stripping, it also wastes heals. Throwing a meaty extend, tss, or sci team on a target with low shield capacity runs the very significant risk of over-healing that target.
Borg shields dont drop nearly as fast as covariants do when you are not taking sustained but just light damage, where covariant users at some time just needs an external heal. I fly around happily ever after with my Defiant having my TSS2 and HE1 not on a cooldown.

But again, I didnt say the Borg shield is better in ALL and every situation, but like i said again, the small capacity increase for the Aegis doesnt make up for the more then double the regen of the borg.

Bye the way that was my graph, not melines, she's just repeating it. And Im totally aware this doesnt take any other aspect of the game into account. And yes the timer calculation resets every time ur back to full.

And yes you will overheal someone when ur against a nub-pug team, if the premade on the enemy team is somewhat better with better target coordination your overheal story is less likely. And having a heavily focussed target healed with both external and your own powerlevel = much more worthy imo.

Again someone asked about the regen/capacity, I just simply showed the difference of Regeneration, without any other aspects and/or specific gameplay in mind, for that, the game is to complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
I have seen some people do well with covariants.. if they have the ability to keep them up. I have seen others fail at regen, because they don't do the work entailed to keep them balanced and whatnot.

But there is a truth here.

As a healer, I find I have to do a lot more healing to covariant users, on average than regen users. When I say healing, I am not just talking about hull. I mean TSS and Extend Shields and even a Science team if it comes down to it. The regen guy will occassionally take a bit more hull damage for a burst, but I can shore up his shields much easier and get him stabilized for a hull heal, once the hole has been plugged.... which is much easier.

Use what works for you, but don't discount the play style of the user.
I totally agree.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
09-08-2011, 09:28 AM
Hurleybird, I can tell you are passionate about how you feel about Covariants. I can respect that.

I am passionate about regens.

There is another factor that is not being calculated into the mix.

That is how you play.

I don't fly my cruiser like some other people fly theirs. I use different abilities and have different approaches to combat than somebody else will have.

The bottom line is this: I have found what works for me. I have been using them since season 1. I will keep using them (until they come out with a resilient set... then that might be the day I switch)

I have seen some people do well with covariants.. if they have the ability to keep them up. I have seen others fail at regen, because they don't do the work entailed to keep them balanced and whatnot.

But there is a truth here.

As a healer, I find I have to do a lot more healing to covariant users, on average than regen users. When I say healing, I am not just talking about hull. I mean TSS and Extend Shields and even a Science team if it comes down to it. The regen guy will occassionally take a bit more hull damage from a burst, but I can shore up his shields much easier and get him stabilized for a hull heal, once the hole has been plugged.... which is much easier.

Use what works for you, but don't discount the play style of the user.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
09-08-2011, 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Absolute and total *garbage*. That number is about as relevant as Dstahl's promises (not relevant at all). The majority of shield heals on any team that isn't completely worthless do not come from regen, they come from actual healing.

Even if you grant a complete vacuum of healing, your graph is not a real representation of STO mechanics. You can't just take the initial capacity and add regeneration infinitely past that point ignoring the cap. You don't actually regenerate shields unless those shields take damage, so you would need to model that in. The greater the rate that you take damage the more valuable that capacity becomes, and vice-versa.

Ignoring all of the flaws of your simplistic model though, let's look at the fact that you see covariants as being better for the first 30 seconds of a fight. What you haven't considered is that every time your team restores your shields that 30s timer is essentially restarted. A competent team is going to fully restore your shields *far* more often than every 30 seconds. According to your own logic covariant shields are better 100% of the time in a properly set up team :p

Low shield capacity doesn't just make you susceptible to burst and shield stripping, it also wastes heals. Throwing a meaty extend, tss, or sci team on a target with low shield capacity runs the very significant risk of over-healing that target.
The point is that those targets doesnt *need* those heals as much as the Cov equipped ships.. Between my EP2Ss and the natural regeneration.. I practically never have 0 shields.. Even when pugging..

My Excelsior doesnt have a single shieldheal besides the 2x EP2S - My Defiant doesnt carry heals at all, but focus on resists to survive instead.. After I switched from Aegis to Borg, my survivability increased for both ships.. Regardless of being in a LF group or PUGing.. I die less, I fly around without shields less, I stay in fights longer.
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