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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
09-13-2011, 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBuzzard
If the "que" system is used (nothing wrong with that) .. there MUST be larger team play (25 and 50 ) team sizes made available. Smaller groups only work CONSISTANTLY well when there is a "balance" of ships in the mix. (PvP is yet another thread in and of itself )
Wow THAT would be a giant FedBall to play with...

But yeah that would be fun with a giant terretorry control map that really REQUIRES you to split up...
... big fleet battles, Ambrushing reinforcments on their way to support the forces on one of the control points... ect ect ect.

Why do people have to take all fun out of that game by remembering me how great this game COULD be?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
09-13-2011, 10:07 AM
Perhaps, there is an opportunity here, for Cryptic and STO. Ok, so story based, themepark MMOs seem to be the norm of what is being released. Dev Cos. tend to copy WoW almost 150%. Even new games, much anticipated, are doing the same exact thing. Believe me, I know, I can't say how I know, but I do know.

If Cryptic keeps up with the "WoW in space" routine" all quest based, themepark based, end game raids (and that's it)" then they have to compete with WoW on it's own terms. A game with almost 8 years of post launch development and a supposed 100 man dev team for adding content. I doubt they're going to keep up on that equation. If they try to compete with TOR on it's own merits, to be honest, they will again lose drasticly. It seems the engine they built for CO will not let them. Ground is "different", way too many delays, etc. The delays seem to be in space combat also, they've just hid them a bit better. (Case in point? "Where's the new content?????" threads) If Cryptic believes that the IP will carry them thru on anything, they might take a good look at SOE and SWG. It didn't work so well for them. IP owners become problematic also, after trials/CHANGES that didn't work. It is reported that LA went to BioWare in Dec of 05 (1 month after NGE) to begin discussion for TOR.

But............., if they take the best of the sandbox MMOs, the best of their themepark, add endgame (which most themepark MMOs are severly lacking), a little bit of the "world simulators", etc, they just might become a viable alternative to all the others. Not all gamers want to play WoW, For the ones that do, a new game will never compete unless it has all the features, content, etc of the old game it's trying to kill. After all, if we all wanted WoW, we would be playing, and paying, WoW. (or TOR here quickly)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
09-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
Wow THAT would be a giant FedBall to play with...

But yeah that would be fun with a giant terretorry control map that really REQUIRES you to split up...
... big fleet battles, Ambrushing reinforcments on their way to support the forces on one of the control points... ect ect ect.

Why do people have to take all fun out of that game by remembering me how great this game COULD be?
I never will forget the first time I did a 40 man group (PvP) ... Hooooly cats ! WOW ! ( I died a lot) ... BUT by the end of BC I managed to be able to deal out more than my share of kills !! The larger groups can be more forgiving . and allows a better learning curve for newbs. Add some decent gear to the mix (on both sides) ... shake well .. and stand back and watch the fire works !

hehehehe LOADS of fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
09-13-2011, 10:38 AM
BF 2142 allowed 64, you are right. If that game was still well supported we would be there now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
09-13-2011, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuccaneerDTB
BF 2142 allowed 64, you are right. If that game was still well supported we would be there now.
yeah .. bottom line: not so much soloism as a lack of other interesting things that yield loot, (other than useless food drops and batteries) or other activities where you can meet others and interact. The sharded system ( I think that's what its called) simply is not that affective. Even in grinding a player should be able to see a passer by now and then !
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
09-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Well, I hope that Cryptic follows some of the points that CCP did with Eve and no I don't mean copy EVE Online.

What I mean is their development approach of adding various content to their game. Reinvesting in their product continually, like upgrading server hardware and graphics code. They haven't shied away from adding content they know everyone won't necessarily use like adding exploration, an indepth economic game model, and Empire wars etc. They allow for both casual and hardcore gamers to pitter around in their galaxy and have fun.

I'm not gonna deny that a casual non pvp'er will achieve greatness on the level of owning a Titan or commanding a Mega Corp. There is indeed a defined boundary between the Hardcore and Softcore players. However, just like **** with the frontier system, there was that defined line that said, "Here be monsters(and the Enemy player realms) that only the brave and dedicated shall venture."

But both types of players can have fun in high Sec, and if played properly, Low sec space. You can solo or group in Eve online and still get that sense of accomplishment.

While alot of MMO's populations dwindle overtime, Eve's has steadily grown. And I believe it is a direct correlation between not copying WoW or the simple MMO formula.

I believe STO's future is secured with PW, and their parent company having vision. (hopefully it isn't just PR crap) Cryptic has the potential to add diverse content. It may not appeal to everyone but can differentiate themselves from the clone MMO formulas. Visiting different aspects of their game and exploit the Star Trek theme will bear fruit in the long run, as players look at the variety of things to do aside from blasting stuff.

I won't disagree there is a danger in being different, because there is a danger in venturing into the unknown. But that is where the excitement is, and the greatest possible success.

STO has the potential to go where no MMO has gone before.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
09-13-2011, 01:40 PM
someone must a' struck a nerve somewhere !!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
09-13-2011, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBuzzard
someone must a' struck a nerve somewhere !!
The mods don't read every thread but if you make any references in a title to other games or products, you'll get moved to Ten Forward even if there are no references in the thread. It's the words "from another MMO" in the title that did it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
09-13-2011, 03:29 PM
Hmm, interesting read - though I don't think I would agree entirely.

First there were singleplayer games, where you were all alone. Then came multiplayer and MMOs, where you had to team up with others to really do stuff. What we have in STO now and what seems fashionable in this era appears to be the "hybrid" games, where you can solo most of the game or team up with others without perceiving any major differences in content. Other MMOs started to swing much the same way, such as WoW still requiring groups for many things, but allowing people to easily queue for auto-grouping. Now, that doesn't do much for social experiences. In case of WoW, groupmates found via the "dungeon finder" act almost like NPCs, rushing through the dungeon without ever saying something anything other than a "kthxbye" at the end. Or if they do, it mostly seems to be insults.

Now, as you can imagine, this doesn't help breeding a sense of community. But this still is only a symptom of the sickness, not the origin. The real issue, to me, is the massive railroading. Players get taken by their hands, being led through countless of story arcs by the developer, and then end up being lost and confused when they have reached endgame. The "theme park" atmosphere has dulled people's perception, and instead of having honed the ability to find fun by themselves by organizing stuff with other players, they revert to an almost catatonic state of daily grind whilst bemoaning the shortage of content in the various games' forums. These are problems that sandbox games like UO or EVE never had.

That said, perhaps my own perception is biased. Back when I was still playing UO, I was able to enter a world of possibilities - there were no quests, no pre-marked roads I was restricted to. Only lots of people who, by strength of the human spirit, made this virtual world their own by founding large organizations, clans and guilds, running not only businesses but entire cities. What usually started out as chaos and the concept of "might makes right" would sooner or later develop into a tiny realm with its own rules, with a population deferring to local authorities, with a hierarchy keeping order and protecting its inhabitants. It was like a mirror of human society!

There would always be bands of brigands who would prey on the weak, but there would be just as many righteous paladin-circles and guardian forces rising up to accept the challenge because there was fun in being good. And in-between you had the merchants, the miners and the single adventurers who would try to make a living, often siding with one lord or another.
To give an example of what this kind of freedom can lead to from another game - have you ever heard of the so-called "Shard of the Herald" from Asheron's Call? Here is a summary of the epic events surrounding the valiant defense of the Empyrean Cathedral against the hordes of other players who lusted only for the loot the final shard would hold, caring little for the fate of the (game) world. It saddens me that such things will probably never be possible in the average contemporary MMO, as they would be regarded as "too complex" and unsuitable for the masses. Theme parks and the concept of "smallest common denominator" seem to be preferred, but isn't this why all games now feel alike?

Don't get me wrong, an approach like this - and even the massive soloing - has its advantages. But the end result is that, indeed, it all feels the same. And the soup is getting stale. Nowadays, many people cheer for those shiny new games with their funny features, but in the end, the vast majority won't stick with them. Like a swarm of locusts, they wander from game to game. Looking back at the communities and societies and indeed the very stories that spawned within more sandboxy games like UO and SWG, which in some cases are still going strong even after so many years, it is kind of saddening. Then again, these games are still niche and its playerbase isn't very big.

Which brings me back to my potentially flawed perception I mentioned earlier. Back then, I had more time. And right now I have the feeling that people have less and less of it with every passing year. The old generation of gamers now has fulltime jobs, and the new generation prefers "light food" where they can get going right away without much of a learning curve or complex advancements and a sophisticated social structure. Perhaps such games are indeed a thing of the past - at least for now.

Aaaaanyhow, to finish all that rambling, let me link to two articles from another website that I found very inspiring, mirroring my feelings on some of the issues touched upon in this thread:
The Emasculation of MMOs: Part 1 - How convenience replaced risk
The Emasculation of MMOs: Part 2 - Fun is for children, adventure is for adults
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
09-13-2011, 07:16 PM
Well, here's another thing that is starting to happen in the MMO industry.

Those games that survive the initial onslaught of the singleplayer mindset, who return to the community aspect of the MMO are starting to see players return to their games. Nostalgia or not, it is the groupcentric players that inevitably become the solid loyal core. They see a particular MMO as the game they are going to "invest in", and that includes the community. It fosters a spirit of comraderie knowing that the dredges of MMO's have moved on, and you are left with players who actually care about that particular game.

The single players will rush off to the next MMO adventure without a care in the world. These players have no interest in coming back to games because in their mind they have "Beat the Game", like a true singleplayer. The only singleplayers that will stick around STO after the launch of SWTOR are the diehard Star Trek fans.

This explains why SWG (even with the horrible NGE) was actually starting to see a slow but steady increase in players. Though simplistic compared to the original version, it far exceeds alot of other MMO's for complexity. This is probably why LA refused SOE the renewal of the license in 2012. They feared that once people tore through their themepark SWTOR, people might actually go back to SWG.
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