Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceroid View Post
cocky much?

It shows exactly what you claim you don't want pve to be. mindless circling and spacebar mashing... actually no theres not even any spacebar mashing... just autofire.

PvE is already plenty easy and boring as-is.
It didn't take a person of my IQ (cocky yes, but justifiably so) to know that the video would be exactly what it turned out to be; hence my knowledge of its length.

So lets agree that pve is able to be done with space bar mashing. PvP's argument seems to be since this is so we can ignore it in favor of pvp balance. To me this negates your argument in favor of the one that pve is the place that needs far more dev attention to make for a compelling pve experience, especially since we're going to be getting an influx of new f2p players. Boring pve play that is still being played by tens of times more people than pvp is a higher priority.

But even if we agree that space bar mashing is sufficient for pve success does not mean it's desirable for skills to have no effect; using those skills and making a good build are what make pve fun in the first place.

Buff npcs; if you want to nerf a bunch of things for pvp then make those nerfs stay there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 182
09-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
if you want to nerf a bunch of things for pvp then make those nerfs stay there.
Does this apply to buffs as well.... Perhaps PvE should get back the first version of Tac team... as it was buffed for PvP and all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 183
09-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Well you do know that if NPC's get buffed, they are going to get buffed with powers as they are already written. Powers like subnoob, PSW, FOMM and AP:B. Would you like to get hit by an enemy NPC that is using the same OP or imbalanced skills we're asking to get some work? No, you wouldn't. There would be a blood curdling cry from the pve playerbase about how this npc immobilized someone for minutes or one shot them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 184
09-16-2011, 04:29 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Community Rules and Policies. ~Stormshade
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 185
09-16-2011, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
It didn't take a person of my IQ (cocky yes, but justifiably so) to know that the video would be exactly what it turned out to be; hence my knowledge of its length.

So lets agree that pve is able to be done with space bar mashing. PvP's argument seems to be since this is so we can ignore it in favor of pvp balance. To me this negates your argument in favor of the one that pve is the place that needs far more dev attention to make for a compelling pve experience, especially since we're going to be getting an influx of new f2p players. Boring pve play that is still being played by tens of times more people than pvp is a higher priority.

But even if we agree that space bar mashing is sufficient for pve success does not mean it's desirable for skills to have no effect; using those skills and making a good build are what make pve fun in the first place.

Buff npcs; if you want to nerf a bunch of things for pvp then make those nerfs stay there.
I think you're both arguing two different things.

Iceroid and Hurley are right about PvE -- it's pretty lame as is, and that video made me laugh. Circle tactic FTW!

But I also agree w/ you Shakkar, PvE does need to be more interesting. PvP needs to be balanced. But these two goals are really mutually exclusive.

If the Devs really wanted to be smart, they would observe the tactics being used by PvPers, apply them to the AI code for some NPC groups, and throw them at PvEers. Then you all would have something to do in PvE instead of button mash...er... circle and autofire!

In regards to PVP balance: I'm advocating a serious separation of balance tables for each mode of play. The effects of powers on players vs. NPCs can be balanced simultaneously with that of players vs. players, because they are mutually exclusive. SS on players should not have the same result as when used on NPCs. Same w/ jam sensors, etc. etc. etc.

QED.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Community Rules and Policies. ~Stormshade
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 187
09-16-2011, 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
How is this pwnd? You proved his point, no boff powers and all the player does is fly in circles mashing space bar.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 188
09-16-2011, 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
You act as if you have some moderator privileges to invoke to tell me where to post.

Normally I would be happy to let you pvp types fume and argue with each other without my interference. However, since there is dev attention to this and you guys are suggesting things to the dev team that will effect the gaming experience of everyone, it seems only proper that everyone have their say.

Pretty sure you would not like it if I told you where you could or could not post. Please refrain from doing that to me.
Glad to understand where your coming from... but this is the PvP section... we are posting ideas as they relate to PvP sure.

No I don't really care how X skill effects X borg unit... I don't care. Finding ways to kill X borg unit isn't really all that thought intensive. The new F2P guys your worried about won't even know how easy X skill used to make killing X borg unit. The rest of you can adapt by using Y skill to kill X borg unit.

I am playing with you my friend... post where you like... however if you are really just in this section to derail any honest communication we may be having with the developers, you are not going to get to warm a reception.

I am sure any changes they make will have lots of consideration for the PvE gamers placed on them. Too this point in the game I don't think anyone can honestly point to ANY skill that has been changed that handicapped PvE play in anyway. It has been my xp that PvE today is EASIER than it has ever been.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 189
09-16-2011, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
To me this negates your argument in favor of the one that pve is the place that needs far more dev attention to make for a compelling pve experience, especially since we're going to be getting an influx of new f2p players.
There we couldn't agree more. PvE would be a lot more fun and compelling (and not to mention more Trek-like) if instead of fighting hordes of brain dead, teethless npcs we fought a smaller number of computer opponents that were better able to keep players on their toes. If PvE opponents more closely resembled the capability of players then everyone would be having more fun and we wouldn't make fun of PvE so much. In essence the more that PvE resembles PvP the better it will become, and in that case the better you balance PvP the better PvE balance you will have as well -- which is kind of the opposite of what I think you are trying to argue.

Right now, whatever happens to PvP balance is completely irrelevant to PvE, because PvE *is* already flying around in circles using autofire without even the need to use buffs or balance shields. People who frequent these forums understand that, hence the reception you got for your ironic post.

Separate balance for PvE and PvP is a novel idea but is definitely the easy way out, and is certainly not the ideal way to design a game. Having powers work differently between PvP and PvE is confusing and convoluted, it lacks elegance, and it makes transitioning between the two areas extremely difficult. When you use good design principles, you shouldn't need to resort to a such a cop-out. The current Cryptic staff couldn't design their way out of a paper bag, but if they hire the right people, take some hints from PWE, and shake things up a bit in upper management -- who knows, maybe that will turn around.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 190 I do pvp as well
09-16-2011, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Glad to understand where your coming from... but this is the PvP section... we are posting ideas as they relate to PvP sure.

No I don't really care how X skill effects X borg unit... I don't care. Finding ways to kill X borg unit isn't really all that thought intensive. The new F2P guys your worried about won't even know how easy X skill used to make killing X borg unit. The rest of you can adapt by using Y skill to kill X borg unit.

I am playing with you my friend... post where you like... however if you are really just in this section to derail any honest communication we may be having with the developers, you are not going to get to warm a reception.

I am sure any changes they make will have lots of consideration for the PvE gamers placed on them. Too this point in the game I don't think anyone can honestly point to ANY skill that has been changed that handicapped PvE play in anyway. It has been my xp that PvE today is EASIER than it has ever been.
I am primarily a pve player. I have dozens of characters and something like 19 at top rank. I have flown every ship except the Oberth and most ships I have flown with every class. But you don't play as much as I have since open beta and not do the other things in the game too. I pvp several times a week. So it's not like I'm totally unprepared to speak in the pvp forum.

I certainly didn't come here to derail honest communication. I substantively spoke to your points when I saw something productive to say.

The argument continues that since pve is so easy it doesn't matter what we nerf. I do not agree with that assessment. There have been numerous nerfs that adversely affected pve even if success was still possible with that nerf. For example, before Sensor Analysis was added, I quit flying sci vessels in pve for months. The nerfs to sci made completing missions take twice as long or more than doing them with an escort. So I had a dozen people flying escorts. Sci ships were pretty much worthless in pve but were still OP in pvp. This is a big part of why I continue to advocate for separating how powers work between the two play types.

PvE is too boring as it is. Nerfing skills for everyone makes it even more boring. Improving npcs is a very important need for the game as a whole, and having the player have meaningful choices with their skills and builds is a primary need with game design. Some of the nerfs asked for will lessen those meaningful choices.
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