Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 191
09-16-2011, 05:01 PM
OK I'll bite...

Which changes effected PvE for sci ships ? (I won't argue the point really sci ships have never been the most effective ships for PvE)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 192
09-16-2011, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
I do pvp as well
That's what a lot of PvErs say. Most players have at least dabbled in PvP, and many use this to defend ridiculous arguments. If you were even moderately serious about PvP people here would know about it. If the PvP community doesn't consider you a PvPer, then you either aren't a PvPer or you are remarkably good at hiding your in-game identity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
PvE is too boring as it is. Nerfing skills for everyone makes it even more boring.
That's completely illogical, and exactly backwards. If PvE is already too easy, then how is heaping a host of overpowered abilities on top of that going to make things better? If anything, nerfing abilities is going to help PvE by making it less retardedly easy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 193 sigh
09-16-2011, 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
That's what a lot of PvErs say. Most players have at least dabbled in PvP, and many use this to defend ridiculous arguments. If you were even moderately serious about PvP people here would know about it. If the PvP community doesn't consider you a PvPer, then you either aren't a PvPer or you are remarkably good at hiding your in-game identity.



That's completely illogical, and exactly backwards. If PvE is already too easy, then how is heaping a host of overpowered abilities on top of that going to make things better? If anything, nerfing abilities is going to help PvE by making it less retardedly easy.
Only "serious" pvp'ers need apply to dictate how skills in the game work, or even join the discussion of same. I've seen this before. Just because I don't pvp against you or top tier fleets doesn't mean I don't do it. I pvp primarily in private queues within my fleet or with friends. I do Ker'rat a few times a week. I have no desire to be cannon fodder for top tier pre-mades, which is all that really counts with your crowd, but represents perhaps 1% or less of the playerbase. Yet you guys always want your nerfs to apply to everyone; discussions of separating pvp from pve so pvp can be balanced without effecting everyone's fun are usually shot down.

None of this matters. My voice carries the same weight as anyone's and my arguments will stand or fall based on what the devs decide.

As for your second argument, you've already made the point that having any powers at all just makes the game absurdly easy. You've said pve is worse than anything except violent death in posts in the past. So forgive me if I don't hold you up as the arbiter of how pve should be played. My point is not that powers are needed for success, just that without them pve is not fun. People want something meaningful to happen when they make a build and spec for it and then use their skills. Balancing them for focus-fire from 5 players does not improve things for pve.

I think you made the point that improving pve is the bigger priority when you showed that video. At least then we can quit making pve the whipping boy for pvp with the argument that since it's easy we should just ignore it and focus on pvp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 194
09-16-2011, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
I think you made the point that improving pve is the bigger priority when you showed that video. At least then we can quit making pve the whipping boy for pvp with the argument that since it's easy we should just ignore it and focus on pvp.
Nobody is arguing that PvE doesn't deserve FAR more dev time, considering the ratio of PvE'ers to PvP'ers. The argument is that PvP goes months at a time with not so much as a peep from the devs in terms of balance etc...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 195
09-16-2011, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
As for your second argument, you've already made the point that having any powers at all just makes the game absurdly easy
Where do you make this stuff up?

Quote:
That's completely illogical, and exactly backwards. If PvE is already too easy, then how is heaping a host of overpowered abilities on top of that going to make things better? If anything, nerfing abilities is going to help PvE by making it less retardedly easy.
That was what was said. Where are you getting these things . All I read from you is "well" written trolling.

You have posted in the "Comprehensive list of suggestions for PvP changes for the Devs" thread yet you speak as if you havent read it. " wouldnt surprise me.
How many listed there are nerfs? How many actually affect pve gameplay negatively?

meh im 1 away from a forum vacation so im gonna go spend time with the gf.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 196
09-16-2011, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
You've said pve is worse than anything except violent death in posts in the past. So forgive me if I don't hold you up as the arbiter of how pve should be played.
And not liking PvE disqualifies me from discussing it how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
My point is not that powers are needed for success, just that without them pve is not fun.
Straw man argument. There's a big difference between nerfing powers and wholesale removing them. Obviously having a bunch of abilities to click gives players something to do and can make things less dull, but making PvE more easy by implementing stupidly OP abilities when the issue is that PvE is already too easy is stupid, and a man with your remarkably high IQ shouldn't have so much trouble realizing that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
People want something meaningful to happen when they make a build and spec for it and then use their skills. Balancing them for focus-fire from 5 players does not improve things for pve.
What exactly are these skills that are only balanced for "5-man focus fire" then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
I think you made the point that improving pve is the bigger priority when you showed that video. At least then we can quit making pve the whipping boy for pvp with the argument that since it's easy we should just ignore it and focus on pvp.
Again, the best and easiest way to make PvE more interesting is by making it more like PvP. This will make PvP balance more important. So you either balance for PvP because PvE balance is irrelevant (what we have now), or you balance for PvP because PvE follows the same basic rules and what helps PvP will help PvE too (what we should have, assuming good design). Either way, your argument falls down.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 197 You aren't wrong
09-16-2011, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceroid View Post
Nobody is arguing that PvE doesn't deserve FAR more dev time, considering the ratio of PvE'ers to PvP'ers. The argument is that PvP goes months at a time with not so much as a peep from the devs in terms of balance etc...
It's pretty absurd that there's been one new pvp map since launch, and they even took one away during that time too. It's sad that they haven't been able to put in leaderboards and skill based queues which would let people ease into pvp instead of being cannon fodder for weeks or months. The lack of preparation for pvp, especially on the fed side is an oversight.

The sad thing is I think most of the time we've had a dev team that probably isn't a dozen people devoted to STO. Cryptic has a couple hundred people, but most of them are working on Neverwinter or are core teams that do code for all the games. Of course many of them do things that don't apply to direct development at all. I wouldn't doubt the number on the STO team was less than 10 most of the time since launch. They simply haven't had the resources to do the things that needed to be done.

They are hiring now, how many people I don't know, but it seems that most of the effort is in going for the F2P launch and featured episodes. At least they have the opportunity to make pve more challenging within the new featured eps. Heretic and Geko are looking at a new balance pass for pvp; I just wanted them to take pve into account when doing so rather than ignoring it.

I wonder with our talks about tac team; have the Borg in the Red Alerts been using boarding parties? I haven't noticed any and I've done a couple dozen of them. That would have been a place where I'd expect pve people to need TT.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 198
09-16-2011, 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceroid View Post
Nobody is arguing that PvE doesn't deserve FAR more dev time, considering the ratio of PvE'ers to PvP'ers. The argument is that PvP goes months at a time with not so much as a peep from the devs in terms of balance etc...
Which is really strange when you consider that for subscription based games make money by designing content that has significant replay value. I like doing the solo or even co-op campaign's on video games every now and then, but what consistently brings me back is the competitive player vs player part of a game.

MMO's just = teamwork in my mind. I have fun sharing the experience with real people rather than NPC's or my imagination and I also enjoy working together as a well oiled machine to accomplish the mission (in this case killing the opposition and there is no better foe than another group of real people).

We don't ask for much, but what we do ask for benefits everyone regardless of preferred play style.

What we do ask for are simple things and it boggles our minds that little is ever accomplished. Is it really that hard to turn an existing map into another PvP map? Is it really that hard to reduce the duration or area of effect of an OP ability like Scramble 3? No, it's not, but it's SO EASY for the Dev's to implement 'cool' things for PvE that completely train wreck our gaming preference - Har'Peng's for example...

Just an ounce of love is all we want from time to time. You can save all the uniforms, ship skins, role playing zones (SFA), mindless fleet actions and featured episodes for the PvE community.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 199 Heh seems by now
09-16-2011, 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
And not liking PvE disqualifies me from discussing it how?



Straw man argument. There's a big difference between nerfing powers and wholesale removing them. Obviously having a bunch of abilities to click gives players something to do and can make things less dull, but making PvE more easy by implementing stupidly OP abilities when the issue is that PvE is already too easy is stupid, and a man with your remarkably high IQ shouldn't have so much trouble realizing that



What exactly are these skills that are only balanced for "5-man focus fire" then?



Again, the best and easiest way to make PvE more interesting is by making it more like PvP. This will make PvP balance more important. So you either balance for PvP because PvE balance is irrelevant (what we have now), or you balance for PvP because PvE follows the same basic rules and what helps PvP will help PvE too (what we should have, assuming good design). Either way, your argument falls down.
Seems by now we'd have just agreed to disagree . You do like to push buttons though that prompt another response. It's the first time I've seen saying I'm really smart sound like an insult. In fact I'm very smart. I majored in Nuclear Engineering for my first degree, have a major in mathematics and minors in physics and chemistry for my second. I was Dean's list. I also took argument and rhetoric in college, and I disagree with your assessments of my arguments, or that pve needs to be more like pvp to be challenging. They should be different types of challenge since no AI is going to compare to 5 people planning out a team build and strategy. But game design has been a hobby of mine since 1997; and I'm not wrong that giving the player meaningful choices is the primary focus of skill design. When you nerf a skill, it becomes less valuable for real estate on your bar. Some skills have gone off my bar completely due to those nerfs. That removed some meaningful choices from the game. Once a skill is balanced for pvp, it becomes worth much less in my opinion in pve.

So I advocate for separation of powers. The metagame in top tier pvp will change over time, especially as any skill is nerfed or buffed. PvE does not do this. But pve should still provide a challenge; and should scale up that challenge when you raise the difficulty slider. Right now it doesn't do this; it just makes you do the same thing you were doing before but do it longer.

We're talking in circles and likely past each other at this point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 200
09-16-2011, 06:28 PM
i lold my gf is like whats so funny. sigh. youre great shakkar! absolutely great. but yes agree to disagree talking in circles stuff
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