Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 201
09-16-2011, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
But game design has been a hobby of mine since 1997; and I'm not wrong that giving the player meaningful choices is the primary focus of skill design. When you nerf a skill, it becomes less valuable for real estate on your bar. Some skills have gone off my bar completely due to those nerfs. That removed some meaningful choices from the game. Once a skill is balanced for pvp, it becomes worth much less in my opinion in pve.
Sorry to snip.

Of course your entitled to your thoughts on the matter... and even too share them, misguided or not.

Firstly you choose to remove those skills from your bar. Likely because there was ZERO choice in having them on your bar prior. By which I mean... any cruiser before the RSP changes that didn't run a RSP 1 considering the other options at that rank.... was silly. The skill was simply far too good when compared to the other "Options".

FAW.... was simply FAR too good compared to the other options at its rank. So really its use wasn't optional it was required.

Point is having skills that are TOO good... removes choice as well. There will always be skills that will seem better to some people then others... IN general when Crypic has "NERFED" something it was in fact not just seemingly better then other skills at that rank but was in fact MUCH better either due to bugs or simple oversight. (mainly bugs it seems... Cryptic admits too no oversights )

I will be honest when PvE people standi up and Say "Please don't nerf my PvE" it seems hallow. In general these arguments sound more like people wishing to protect their god mode settings.

A perfectly designed game would have an even usage of skills meaning. For every X skill in the field the same number of Y would be found. This of course is never going to happen. However the skills that left your bar didn't do so because they became worthless... they simply became average. Which should be the intention of the game designers. Should it not ?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 202
09-16-2011, 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
It's the first time I've seen saying I'm really smart sound like an insult. In fact I'm very smart.
But not quite smart enough to grasp the meaning of my italics or my eye rolling emoticons, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
I also took argument and rhetoric in college.
Then you should realize that boasting about how smart you are compared to us mere mortals is not going to engender much support for the rest of your arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
or that pve needs to be more like pvp to be challenging.
You are welcome to come up with your own alternative. I'm sure you could field some ideas to make the trash mobs more interesting, but I would argue that Star Trek shouldn't be about fighting mobs of star ships in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
They should be different types of challenge since no AI is going to compare to 5 people planning out a team build and strategy.
Obviously not, but that's another straw man argument. No one is saying that PvE should be exactly like PvP, or that PvE will be a failure if it doesn't exactly replicate what a 5-man team will do. That being said, giving NPC ships more powers and better AI is going to necessarily make the game more PvP-like, and it's good design to try to make the PvP and PvE elements as similar as possible -- this makes the transition between the two easier and simplifies the balancing process.

Look at Star Craft. Obviously the PvE is different from the PvP, but they operate from the same basic principles. The AI uses the same resources and abilities and structures that the player does -- the fact that the AI will never use them as well as a good player doesn't matter. Star Craft is balanced entirely for the PvP portion of the game, and that has never created meaningfully negative consequences for the rest of the game. This is what STO should strive for -- Fewer NPC ships that follow the same rules as the player does. No over-inflated health, and using the full gamut of equipment and abilities. PvE should be about strategic battles tied to a good story, not about endlessly butchering trash mobs -- especially when those trash mobs are star ships that supposedly house hundreds or thousands of crew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
So I advocate for separation of powers.
Which is lazy design and a total cop out for all the reasons I've already gone over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
The metagame in top tier pvp will change over time, especially as any skill is nerfed or buffed. PvE does not do this.
Sure it does. Any time a power, item, or set is added, anytime a new ship comes out that allows for new possibilities, any time a new NPC is added or an old one tweaked, or anytime a power is changed, PvE changes as well. The change in tactical team fundamentally changed all of the NPCs who used it. You don't really notice this because of the pathetic state PvE is in, and the NPCs aren't going to complain on the forums about your new overpowered ability.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 203
09-16-2011, 07:52 PM
To shakkar or shaka zulu whomever has the bearded Spock Avatar. You do realize that the majority of if not all of use have to play pvp since really that is the only way to level. I will put my raptor's full PvP build against your Defiants full PvE build and lets see who's build is better at PvE. I mean really PvP balance makes the game more enjoyable on the PvE side. Now if you admit that you like brain dead goomba like NPCs (no offense Goomba Crew ) then yes a nerf to skills will affect you but right now I have a fed engineer I can't get past LtC 7 without no doze because with FaW and TS no NPC stands a chance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 204
09-17-2011, 12:49 AM
Ok, maybe going the two-pronged approach is lazy... but I don't see any other way to at least starting to get balancing underway. At this point in the game, I don't see Cryptic putting in the time necessary to achieve what you've outlined...

But know that I agree w/ you Hurley. What can be done now to get started then? Husanak has some pretty good ideas on specifics with regards to specific powers, and there's the power tweak thread going on here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 205
09-17-2011, 01:43 AM
The correct way is to design the game as a PvP game first, balance that then add the PvE parts in and they will be automatically balanced against the players by the simple virtue that the skills are already balanced at this point.
And you get more interesting PvE as result as well, since you know as dev you can use the full range of skills instead having to limit yourself to a selected few since doing more would overpower the players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 206
09-17-2011, 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrrom View Post
Senor Scramble is but one issue. Add to that SS jumps from one player to the next, but there's no AoE unscramble, is there? So everyone has to stock sci-team now? That's moving into a stratagem argument at that point, and we can save that for another day. Maybe Al will introduce an AoE unscramble in another yet-to-be-released ship variant. /facepalm.
Hmm. AoE unscramble - Maybe _that's_ what the Nebulas sensor ability could do? Of course, the Klingons need an equivalent immediately.

---

PvE and PvP wouldn't need to be so different if NPCs would use more of the same mechanics and powers that players use. They don't have to use the exact same setups, but if NPCs would have damage resistance buffs (hull and shield), and similar damage buffs as player ships, achieving the balance both for PvP and PvE would be a lot easier.

(One cannot really argue PvE is balanced. Players are fundamentally more powerful than NPCs, which isn't necessarily the problem. But Offense is also far more important in PvE than Defense or Control. While in PvP, control rules.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 207
09-17-2011, 02:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
That's completely illogical, and exactly backwards. If PvE is already too easy, then how is heaping a host of overpowered abilities on top of that going to make things better? If anything, nerfing abilities is going to help PvE by making it less retardedly easy.
Start with a different baseline assumption:
1) It's a given you will win in PvE.
2) While you will assuredly win i PvE, it matters if you do it in 1 minute or in 5 minutes or in 10 minutes.

That'S why Science Vessels suck in PvE. Because they need 5 minutes where an Escort needs 1.The Science Vessel might never get below 95 % hull and shields, but it's cycling for 5 minutes instead of getting over it with 1.

Nerfing powers means that powers have even less effect, and it takes even longer to beat a combat that is already a foregone conclusion.

Now, we certainly would also like to adjust the baseline somewhat - that it'S not always given that you win. At least on higher difficulty levels. But since Cryptic doesn't do that, but it changes player powers, we'll have to figure out what to do with 2.

I used to be against changing the rules between PvE and PvP for powers. But the truth is - There is already a giant gap between PvE and PvP. It probably doesn't matter if we add some power differences to it, especially if we already have to assume that PvE mastery helps little in PvP right now already.

That said, I'D still prefer if Cryptic would change the AI into using more powers, relying more on resistances and buffs to achieve its damage output and its survivability. But I suppose then really everyone would start playing Science Captains, because Subnuking away the Borg Cubes EPtS3 and his Beam Overload III and High Yield Torpedo III would be important.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 208
09-17-2011, 05:37 AM
Wow I stopped by this thread to put in my 2 ec on scramble and the topic is at this point? Shoulda been watching this thread closer

anyhwho the last 2 pages are quite interesting. All I can say is you just can't make a npc in this game that will put up half the fight of someone thinking. EDIT: and this is why i have only 3 max level toons. leveling has become cumbersome. maybe a jolt over to the kling side for a nice 6 month run. ive been nudged there twice recently.

Also I spent half the night last night circling the battlefield waiting for tha darn antimatter spread bs to wear off only to get hit with the usual scrambles. But they were all nubsauce, so it was kinda funny. Hey people know about full power to shields and engines right? I mean..... Just.... Nvm.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 209
09-17-2011, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkar View Post
None of this matters. My voice carries the same weight as anyone's and my arguments will stand or fall based on what the devs decide.
So does your image. Go figure.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 210
09-17-2011, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrrom View Post
PvP is:
  • Never-ending, self-perpetuating content
  • Can be a huge source of fun
  • Addresses the lack of social interaction, an issue called by name by DStahl himself.

So please, invest already.
I'm SO surprised, that a game so lacking in content (especially for KDF) doesn't put more resources into PvP, because it really is "Never-ending, self-perpetuating content" - and all I play STO for.
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