Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
09-16-2011, 06:29 AM
Data was perfectly capable of doing the technical tasks required of him (hence his rank) his inability to socialise corretly is not something that was held against other people joining starfleet. Lt Barclay being a case in point. Hell he (barclay) even became part of starfleet high tech branch, despite (forcefully) taking over the enterprise at one point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
09-16-2011, 06:45 AM
I agree but my point was less about his capability than the fact ts hard to believe that some of his social problems and questions about humanity - he had never faced prior to joining the enterprise.

That said I like the earlier post about opportunity etc and creative licence. Like I said before I know it's just TV but it had nEver dawned on me before. How preposterous his character actually is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
09-16-2011, 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by muff2977
I agree but my point was less about his capability than the fact ts hard to believe that some of his social problems and questions about humanity - he had never faced prior to joining the enterprise.

That said I like the earlier post about opportunity etc and creative licence. Like I said before I know it's just TV but it had nEver dawned on me before. How preposterous his character actually is.
That depends how much exposure he got prior to working on the enterprise. If he didnt socialise or was shunned (due to the problems he had socialising) it may well be he did not have such opertunities until he made friends like those on the enterprise. (Even in starfleet, nobody is obliged to socialise with others)

Even many human people can go through life with a startinling lack of life lessons or the ability to empathise with others. Those who have lived sheltered lives or have disabiltys such as mild autisim are an example.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
09-16-2011, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by muff2977
Yeah originally I always thought that data was a honoury title of Lt Cdr (bestowed straight of the bar due to his abilities). Which would have made sense - but it definatly refers in early episodes to a number of years between time at the academy and draft to enterprise ( that and all his medals - according to crusher in most toys - some of starfleets most heroic-

Loved the idea about his old crew that would have been good!

Ref canon to early poster. I understand what you mean - but by that logic are you saying only Gene's stuff is canon? Cause that dismisses loads of trek ( parts of STTNG, voyager, DSN, enterprise, as well as a number of films).

I suppose that's my poin really no I don't think I do know what 'canon' is. Don't get me wrong I love trek ( my partner and I were sad enough to save up for years to go to Vegas just to do the star trek rides - we live in UK).

I mean it's great that we have a rich history of trek and in the main writers try to follow what has come before. But a 'canon' I don't see it maybe we love the show that much we are kidding ourselves - star trek writers and producers (including and especially gene) change things at a whim - because ultimately it is just a tv show. It is us ( the fans) who 'create' canon and them debate it. For the actual people who do create trek, they couldn't give two monkeys.

And I don't mean this rudely to an earlier Post and I probably shouldn't have brought up JJ vision - aaa it's to controversial. But watch early TOS - some of the stuff in that is nonsense in later TOS. For starters starfleet isn't even called starfleet by kirk.
Thats the thing, any tv show or movie is canon, end of story. STO is soft canon because they have permission to write in the storyline and its all ran past CBS who owns star trek. They make decide what is canon and what is not. Its not msde by CBS so its not canon, but soft canonthey are given more leeway then if they wanted a canon star trek game. Like books, if they get a special nod, most of the time they dont but they can be considerd soft canon if they do get such a nod. This doesnt mean they cant change things...Take star gate for example...they had a laser that could vaporize a body after 3 shots. in season 3 they changed it so it never did that, They even spoofed it in the 200 ep.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
09-16-2011, 07:36 PM
I think Data's lack of social skills is one of the least anomalous issues with his character. What maybe makes even less sense is that he's been in Starfleet for 14 years, and apparently was considered sentient and able to join (he didn't have techs following him around monitoring), but then suddenly Bruce Maddox wants to take him apart and it's in question whether he's actually a sentient being?

Plus, the fact he's a one of a kind android makes it kind of weird he was just allowed to go off on his own with no one monitoring him or paying any attention, not so much because he couldn't handle it, but wouldn't they want to try to learn more about how he works? I suppose he could have been studied for many years, and then they decided to let him go off on his own, but wouldn't someone like Commander Maddox be on the Enterprise with him?

The sense we get from watching TNG is that no one's really concerned with studying Data or what's happening with him besides occasionally being checked up on. In reality, I feel that Data would never have been allowed to leave the robotics test center and join Starfleet to begin with.

In a way, the introduction of an Odo-Dr.Mora relationship might have been fitting for Data's character, albeit without the emotion.

Anyway...I think we're straying into territory that is simply best not even considered. If you think to hard about many T.V. shows they'll start to fall apart, simply as a result of how T.V. shows are made (this applies to other stories, such as books too, but T.V. shows are the worst offender due to the haphazard nature of their production).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
09-16-2011, 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
Anyway...I think we're straying into territory that is simply best not even considered. If you think to hard about many T.V. shows they'll start to fall apart, simply as a result of how T.V. shows are made (this applies to other stories, such as books too, but T.V. shows are the worst offender due to the haphazard nature of their production).
You good shows will account for the backstory. DS9 gave everyone a back story. Hell, Sisko's back story was the pilot. My question is why do people grow so quickly during TV shows? Sisko served on Jupiter Station for years without confronting his demons and they ended in one episode. Kira went from fighting the Cardassians for her freedom to fighting for theirs. Can you see Americans fighting for British freedom in 1782?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
09-16-2011, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by muff2977
Hi. Just watching STTNG from the start again. And it's still up there for me with TOS. But I don't why - it's never occurred to me before. Data's character doesn't make sense. He is Lt Cdr out of starfleet for (14 I think) a number of years - yet naive as hell. We are supposed to believe some of the issues he comes across are totally new? O don't think that positronoc matrix is all it's made out to be and there's a bit to much auto empty recycling bin going on.

Ow while I'm at does it get on anyone else's nerves hen canon is talked about. Canon doesn't exist - even gene made it up ( by all accounts) as he went along - arguing once cannon was whatever he said it was. Theres load early TOS contradicts itself later with ( and plenty for STTNG too). So jj's film ' not being cannon' - who cares cannon doesn't exist.

What do you guys think?
You just dont get it. I dont think you ever will get it. Its much much simpler than you think.

As for JJs realm not being canon, its not so much as being contradictory as it is literally rewriting trek history. I mean producer's make mistakes and make contradictions at least once or twice in a series. Its just natural to have the possibility of leaving something out by accident, but JJs film LITERALLY rewrites Trek. It even re-purposes it which is why it ****es off some fans. It turns it from a moral message and lessons on humanity to bang bang boom boom. Now that I think of it, Gene's ashes are probably undergoing a nuclear process thats forming a plasma ball of rage headed towards JJ. Cause he's a thing of ashes in space along with Majel Barret.
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