Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinkaos View Post
Data is Captain of the Enterprise E in the Countdown comics, prequel to the new movie, and I think that's canon.

From the 2385 update:



2386:
This is unacceptable, the resurrection of Data in the form of B-4. This is unacceptable, and should be unacceptable to all hard core fans who believe in both "cannon" and the visions and principals of Gene Roddenberry, simply because of the way it was done and the fact that it is written that Picard and Riker would allow such a thing. First of all, no matter how much either cares for Data, just as we fans do, having Data return by basically destroying B-4's personality and individual character, "soul" as it were, is not only wrong but in fact is similar to possession or simple murder of an individual life form even if that life form is an artificial one. Picard, as an example, fought to protect Data's rights as an intelligent new life form against Starfleet Command, which included his rights of free choice and the right to live, grow, and learn as an intelligent life form. So why now would Picard or Riker allow B-4's rights, including his right of life, growth, and learning as a fairly new individual life form, to be discarded in order for even their friend Data to exist again in the body of another? They wouldn't and anyone who truly understands the ideals of Roddenberry and his creation would know that. Data himself would not allow his "brother's" life to be discarded just so he could be resurrected, even if it was the only way to surrive. Picard and Riker would have fought to protect B-4 and his rights just as they fought for Data, watching the ending of Nemesis clearly reveals Picard's feelings concerning B-4. Data died defending and protecting his Captain and his friend, sacrificing his life for another. So why now would that same mind, that same individual personality sacrifice the life and individual mind of another, especially his own "brother", just in order to save his own life? He wouldn't, as Spock would say....it is totally illogical and certainly out of character for Data. If Data's memories could be saved, downloaded from B-4 and transfered into a new "host" like a new android who was created either without an individual programming or specifically for Data then the resurrection of Data would be acceptable by us all without any complaints. I could give a hundred examples from the "cannon" films and television series that would demonstrate how this goes against the principals of not only Roddenberry and his Star Trek, but against the principals of Data, Picard, Riker, and others within the Star Trek universe who now apparently have suddenly changed their values to allow such a wrong act. This, what has been done here, is simply wrong and would have and should have never been allowed by Starfleet or the Federation unless of course they have become corrupt and have sacrificed the principals practiced for so very long. Lastly, simply stating, this even goes whole heartly against the Prime Directive.

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT/GOTSF
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 132
05-31-2010, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Heffner81631
This is unacceptable, the resurrection of Data in the form of B-4. This is unacceptable, and should be unacceptable to all hard core fans who believe in both "cannon" and the visions and principals of Gene Roddenberry, simply because of the way it was done and the fact that it is written that Picard and Riker would allow such a thing. First of all, no matter how much either cares for Data, just as we fans do, having Data return by basically destroying B-4's personality and individual character, "soul" as it were, is not only wrong but in fact is similar to possession or simple murder of an individual life form even if that life form is an artificial one. Picard, as an example, fought to protect Data's rights as an intelligent new life form against Starfleet Command, which included his rights of free choice and the right to live, grow, and learn as an intelligent life form. So why now would Picard or Riker allow B-4's rights, including his right of life, growth, and learning as a fairly new individual life form, to be discarded in order for even their friend Data to exist again in the body of another? They wouldn't and anyone who truly understands the ideals of Roddenberry and his creation would know that. Data himself would not allow his "brother's" life to be discarded just so he could be resurrected, even if it was the only way to surrive. Picard and Riker would have fought to protect B-4 and his rights just as they fought for Data, watching the ending of Nemesis clearly reveals Picard's feelings concerning B-4. Data died defending and protecting his Captain and his friend, sacrificing his life for another. So why now would that same mind, that same individual personality sacrifice the life and individual mind of another, especially his own "brother", just in order to save his own life? He wouldn't, as Spock would say....it is totally illogical and certainly out of character for Data. If Data's memories could be saved, downloaded from B-4 and transfered into a new "host" like a new android who was created either without an individual programming or specifically for Data then the resurrection of Data would be acceptable by us all without any complaints. I could give a hundred examples from the "cannon" films and television series that would demonstrate how this goes against the principals of not only Roddenberry and his Star Trek, but against the principals of Data, Picard, Riker, and others within the Star Trek universe who now apparently have suddenly changed their values to allow such a wrong act. This, what has been done here, is simply wrong and would have and should have never been allowed by Starfleet or the Federation unless of course they have become corrupt and have sacrificed the principals practiced for so very long. Lastly, simply stating, this even goes whole heartly against the Prime Directive.

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT/GOTSF
Did you even watch the last movie? The last few minutes of that flick pretty much cemented the fact that Data was alive and well in the B4 body, way to pay attention
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 133
05-31-2010, 09:46 PM
AWWWWW GEEZ, a wall of text. Please learn to use paragraphs, people are more likely to read what you write.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 134 Corrupt Principals
05-31-2010, 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunbar9 View Post
Overall I liked the entry. I like how everything is shaping up. I'm glad to see Species 8472 is gonna make a return. I would hate to see the only species that actually does real damage to the Borg fall by the wayside.
Also regarding Data, I believe in a previous entry they explained that its just B4's body but Data's memories and experiences overwritten on B4's "brain".
As stated in my previous response, "Corrupt Cannon/Data would not have allowed it", this overwriting B-4's brain is simply wrong and is the same as one life form possessing the body of another or the same as straight out murder. It goes against the principals and ideals of Roddenberry, Star Trek, the principals of Starfleet and the Federation, and certainly the principals and character of not only Data himself but Picard, Riker, and everyone else involved that has been previously shown to fight tooth and nail for the individual rights of any intelligent life form no matter how primitive their thinking/programming may be and no matter whether they be artificial life forms or natural ones. Whoever wrote this nonsense and came up with this "Body stealing" attempt of resurrecting Data certainly didn't spend much time doing any research or clearly coming up with a logical and principal approach to the problem. If they had this would not have been written. Data wouldn't have even allowed this to happen to Lore, even though he was right out evil, because he understood the rights of the individual. Cannon is not only the source of the story and information, it is also whether it follows the foundation, the principals, and the ideals of the original creator and established Trek universe and her "characters", which this does NOT.

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT / GOTSF
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 135
05-31-2010, 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mochlod View Post
Did you even watch the last movie? The last few minutes of that flick pretty much cemented the fact that Data was alive and well in the B4 body, way to pay attention
Yes I watched, but I also learned from it and understood what was happening and why. Did you? I doubt that in all due respect, simply because of your rude response. If you would had you would truly had understood that while Data was a part of B-4 he was simply an influence on B-4 just as any real brother is an influence on another. B-4 was learning from the gift Data gave him, just as an older brother gives to his younger brother the gift of his wisdom and experience, Data did the same for B-4. Just because Data's memories, experiences, and knowledge was passed along to B-4 does not mean that Data intended to take over his brother's body and discard B-4's individual personality all together, nor that Picard would allow it either. Picard's reaction was joy and pleasure in seeing that Data still lives in a sense through B-4 just as a one brother lives through another by the memories and wisdom left to them before they depart this life, that Data was able to give his brother a method to learn and grow from the seed he planted within B-4. Everything isn't as simple minded as this new Star Trek seems to be, sometimes you have to look beyond the trees to see the forest my friend.

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT / GOTSF
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 136
05-31-2010, 10:32 PM
Before going ballistic why don't you find out the story of what actually happened. Data's resurrection in the STO world is explained in the STO novel. It's a well told story, and it fits perfectly within the Star Trek universe. All of the characters are perfectly...in character. They react as you would expect them to react. And I think it would have made one heck of a Star Trek episode.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 137
05-31-2010, 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralBrehe
None of the books or comic books are really considered canon because they often contradict the episodes and movies
I agree 100%, couldn't be said any clearer.

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT / GOTSF
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 138
05-31-2010, 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
Before going ballistic why don't you find out the story of what actually happened. Data's resurrection in the STO world is explained in the STO novel. It's a well told story, and it fits perfectly within the Star Trek universe. All of the characters are perfectly...in character. They react as you would expect them to react. And I think it would have made one heck of a Star Trek episode.
First of all, no one is or has gone ballistic here. Simply stating one's view in great detail in order to express the reasons for that view or the facts behind the view as the individual sees it is not an indication of going ballistic. I believe going ballistic would be less respectful and contain language or outraged comments not pertaining to the point at hand and be very chaotic as well. So please don't assume that I'm ballistic Sir.

Second, I don't need to read or hear the entire story to know and understand that an act is wrong or that a principal has been ignored, bent, or is not being followed as established in years of cannon. I'm sure the story is very well told, but that does not make the final act of possessing B-4's body and over writing his individual personality a good thing does it? The story of King Richard the Lionheart is a well told story as well, but this does not mean that his act of murdering hundreds or more of women and children during his Crusade was right or just does it? I only knew of the comic, the new film, and the timeline on here concerning Data's resurrection and the method used, I was unaware of the novel. But novel or not, in my humble opinion, it is wrong and does not match his character or the principals established in true cannon by ST creator Gene Roddenberry or those of the films and series. Lastly, whether it would make a good episode or not is not the question. The question is still, is it right and meet the standards and principals of the creator? I don't believe it would, but again it is my opinion. But thanks for your response and pointing out the novel to me, I will certainly seek it out for a good read.

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT / GOTSF
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 139
05-31-2010, 11:08 PM
As I have said, you don't know the story. Your assumptions about what happened, according to the novel, are completely wrong. I won't go into detail because I don't want to spoil the story.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 140
05-31-2010, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXN View Post
hold up, if this after Nemesis, then why is data still alive? Did star fleet make B4s memory bigger and download data's memory into b4? well i find that odd, if anybody dose not know what i'm talking about, just read the last paragraph in the report.
I agree but then I find much about the paths that Trek has taken recently to be odd. Let us not forget, beyond the simple size of B-4's memory, the simple rights of B-4 that has been over looked here and ignored by those who in the past have spoken out against the violation of an individual's rights, particularly the rights of newly discovered life forms whether they were artificial or not. The rights that every intelligent life form has, no matter how primitive his/her thinking may be or the form they may take, simply because they exist. The right to learn and develop and the right to choose the best path for their own existence without fear of harm or having their individualism erased are the most vital. But it seems these facts and principals have been overlooked along with so many others in recent additions to the Trek universe now being established. Whatever happened to the Trek message in the stories, the moral principals that once guided and underlined Trek tales?

Respectfully,
Captain T.B. Heffner
CO, U.S.S. Gallifrey NCC-81631
IFT / GOTSF
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