Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
09-18-2011, 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krell83
Isn't there a Option already in game for that?
Game Menu -> Controls =
  • Never auto target objects (ON/OFF)
  • Never auto target pets (ON/OFF)

I'm all for more Balance...
So long as the Definition of "Balance" makes more sense than some other Cryptic Key Word definitions....
*Cough*Content*Cough*
At this point we are talking about the mechanics of the game engine itself, not players targeting.
If an ability like say Scramble sensors is given a limit of 5 targets... that will include mines / pets / ect.
They where not talking about self targeting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
09-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post

Its a level of dedication to the game that gives people unique insights. Truly I mean no offense to the PvE people... and I doubt HB does either. There simply is people in this game that are THAT much better then even the majority of PvP... its that ability to "see" inside the mechanics that the devs should be sifting out. We all know who the "#99s" are in this game... the devs should be weighing their thoughts more heavily, just as any sports board of directors is wise to consult people in the know when they change rules ect.
On top of this, those that only do PvE will never experience the special console abilities being use on them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
09-18-2011, 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alendiak
On top of this, those that only do PvE will never experience the special console abilities being use on them.
Why not? Is there a rule somewhere that says they can't put those powers on NPCs?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
09-18-2011, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Hurly can come off as condescending... personal jibs aside, he is pretty much correct.

When it comes to the inner working of the games math, sorry there is an elite, I don't say that to put anyone down its simply the nature of competition.

I would not argue that because I play some hockey on the weekends in a pickup league that my thoughts on the game carry the same weight of say a Wayne Gretzky. I think that analogy needs no explaining.

Being competitive in the higher levels of STO PvP is no different. Beyond just having lots of practice you have to have an understanding of the mechanics.

PvE People don't copy to the test server so they can test 10 variations of the same build to get combat log results..... PvP people do.

PvE People don't optimize EVERY single aspect of their build looking for synergies that make X and Y > then X and Y if you know what I mean.

PvP people will whip out non game related mathematical formulas to adjust and improve their builds.

Its a level of dedication to the game that gives people unique insights. Truly I mean no offense to the PvE people... and I doubt HB does either. There simply is people in this game that are THAT much better then even the majority of PvP... its that ability to "see" inside the mechanics that the devs should be sifting out. We all know who the "#99s" are in this game... the devs should be weighing their thoughts more heavily, just as any sports board of directors is wise to consult people in the know when they change rules ect.
The only reason this is true in most cases is because most people who play PvE don't play in a way that requires that level of dedication. Now lets take a couple of examples of PvE where that level of dedication can be required to enjoy to game.

Elite Mode: I don't know how it plays out for people in cruisers or science ships but in an Escort as Ive done if you were to try to play the whole PvE game solo on Elite Mode and you don't become intimate with the inner workings of the game it will be pure frustration and not fun at all. One you gain that understanding the challenge becomes fun and at the time I did it shortly after Elite mode was released I went into PvP and held my own very well despite it being my 1st time to PvP in any kind of MMO.

Another example is the STFs. This holds true mostly for the time near their release and will again as soon as elite version are released. If you want to be successful even with team work you have to know how the game works. The place where this breaks down is where methods of completing the challenges become tribal knowledge and instead of knowing how to play people know how to beat the STF but the point remains that in the beginning people still had to know how to play and how the game works. Id venture to say that the people who first figured out how to play the STFs knew the technical inner workings of the game better than the PvP community. The STFs where filled with game mechanics to be exploited and they were.

After saying this I will admit that when your dealing with the way skills interact and the nuances of DPS and their calculation PvPers do have a better understanding of the game but to say that PvE crowd has no idea as HB did is just as out of touch as he claims the devs are.

Just as you have PvP people who know the game better than the rest you also have PvE people who know them too and have a different understanding of them. The PvE side may be a little more sterile and predictable but we deal with the same set of mechanics and in the end both sides of the game have to be fun. Both sides of the game have to be represented because both sides are effected.

If their was no attractive PvE game their wouldn't be enough people left in the game to keep it open and allow the minority who PvP to do that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
09-18-2011, 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alendiak
On top of this, those that only do PvE will never experience the special console abilities being use on them.
They haven't released any missions since we got those consoles. I would actually be amazed if some of the "Boss" ships at the end of some of the missions don't get them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
09-18-2011, 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Body_Surfer
If I were them and heard you talk about me like you just talked about them I guarantee you would be the last person I would talk to ever about anything. No matter if your correct or not you can't tell somebody "your ignorant and out of touch, now listen to me." That approach never works.
Unless You are the Boss... <chuckle>

(Still doesn't really work... but very rarely would ya get back talk about it...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
09-18-2011, 06:52 PM
Oh along the lines limitations of the game, would it be possible to make a BOff ability, console, or item that can only be used in PvE but not PvP?

That would allow for some truly spectacular displays like Torp Spread III without messing with the balance of PvP. It could also be used to make things like that devs in charge of creating cool new rewards for the FE some more freedom to make whatever they can envision without breaking anything.

Edit: Along those lines would it be possible for items abilities or consoles to have different stats in PvP than PvE?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
09-18-2011, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Body_Surfer
The only reason this is true in most cases is because most people who play PvE don't play in a way that requires that level of dedication. Now lets take a couple of examples of PvE where that level of dedication can be required to enjoy to game.

Elite Mode: I don't know how it plays out for people in cruisers or science ships but in an Escort as Ive done if you were to try to play the whole PvE game solo on Elite Mode and you don't become intimate with the inner workings of the game it will be pure frustration and not fun at all. One you gain that understanding the challenge becomes fun and at the time I did it shortly after Elite mode was released I went into PvP and held my own very well despite it being my 1st time to PvP in any kind of MMO.

Another example is the STFs. This holds true mostly for the time near their release and will again as soon as elite version are released. If you want to be successful even with team work you have to know how the game works. The place where this breaks down is where methods of completing the challenges become tribal knowledge and instead of knowing how to play people know how to beat the STF but the point remains that in the beginning people still had to know how to play and how the game works. Id venture to say that the people who first figured out how to play the STFs knew the technical inner workings of the game better than the PvP community. The STFs where filled with game mechanics to be exploited and they were.

After saying this I will admit that when your dealing with the way skills interact and the nuances of DPS and their calculation PvPers do have a better understanding of the game but to say that PvE crowd has no idea as HB did is just as out of touch as he claims the devs are.

Just as you have PvP people who know the game better than the rest you also have PvE people who know them too and have a different understanding of them. The PvE side may be a little more sterile and predictable but we deal with the same set of mechanics and in the end both sides of the game have to be fun. Both sides of the game have to be represented because both sides are effected.

If their was no attractive PvE game their wouldn't be enough people left in the game to keep it open and allow the minority who PvP to do that.

These are 2 different kinds of mechanics at work. In pve for example you never have to worry about being scrambled, where in pvp being scrambled can mean the difference between winning or losing. In pve there is no losing.

I don't know if my point got made but the point is, pve mechanics are not. And will not ever be the same as pvp mechanics because the ai is severly limited in what it can do and what it has at its disposal where pvp are humans that find/use everything at their disposal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
09-18-2011, 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Body_Surfer
Oh along the lines limitations of the game, would it be possible to make a BOff ability, console, or item that can only be used in PvE but not PvP?

That would allow for some truly spectacular displays like Torp Spread III without messing with the balance of PvP. It could also be used to make things like that devs in charge of creating cool new rewards for the FE some more freedom to make whatever they can envision without breaking anything.

Edit: Along those lines would it be possible for items abilities or consoles to have different stats in PvP than PvE?
This I think would be the best solution if we also wanted to thin the pvp community even more.

I can just imagine all the crys of people new to the game asking why such and such power is the best in pve but doesn't do anything in pvp etc etc
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
09-18-2011, 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
These are 2 different kinds of mechanics at work. In pve for example you never have to worry about being scrambled, where in pvp being scrambled can mean the difference between winning or losing. In pve there is no losing.

I don't know if my point got made but the point is, pve mechanics are not. And will not ever be the same as pvp mechanics because the ai is severly limited in what it can do and what it has at its disposal where pvp are humans that find/use everything at their disposal.
To go a step further with the point... Mastering PvE Mechanics, involves mastering the AI. Until Cryptic (No other Designer has ever done it either) develops and AI that can adapt and change out skills and such on you. The mechanics of PvE involve learning what skills counter which type of AI. Sure on elite mode they will spam a few more torps and ignore a few GCD rules... but those are the mechanics you are learning. The Devs are right to seek people out that have learned the mechanics of their AI for info in that regards. When it comes to Skill balance PvP people are in a unique situation, as their opponents do Adapt. They will counter X skill with Y ect.

Again I don't belittle the contribution good PvE players cam give the devs... but the feedback is going to be based on how something effects the mechanics Vs the AI.

Having said that when they tweek skills to act in "balance" with one another... they need to adapt their AI to create the proper level of challange.

So in this regard yes they should listen to people that are very good at adapting to PvE mechanics.

I would say that by balancing the skills with one another (PvP domain) it should be possible to tweek the AI to provide for better PvE content.

However the horse needs to come first ... and that engine is the underlying mechanics of the skills and game play mechanics interaction which PvP people in general will have a better grasp on. (in general)

So bottom line... balance the skills for PvP... and tweek the AI to provide the proper AI to Skill balance after.
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