Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 171
09-30-2011, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesun
Really? i'm a troll because i disagree with your view of the universe and i don't want my name used?
Again way off topic. Possible ramifications of violation of causality please.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 172
09-30-2011, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesun
Really? i'm a troll because i disagree with your view of the universe and i don't want my name used?
Well, there are two possible explanations.

The other one is that you are so far removed from any actual scientific understanding and knowledge, and have such preconceived notions about the correctness of your view, that we have no way of explaining your errors to you.

This is just a simple online forum. It's not an educational course on science, and we don't have laboratory equipment to give you the necessary empirical evidence to be able to actually to show where your mental model of the universe simply fails.

So it's considerably more reasonable to just stop discussing this topic with you.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 173
09-30-2011, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Cosmology devotes little time to mythology. David Talbott and his Kronia Group seek to unite cosmology and mythology.

Not that there is anything wrong in using mythology to help guide a search for the truth. The Chinese observed a super nova that science was able to verify was not myth. Canterburry monks could have seen the formation of the Giordano Bruno crater on the moon, (not substantiated still), but cosmology does not make mythos the center of it's investigations the way Talbott does. Then again Talbott is an author not a scientist.
Had to drag this back up sorry. To be honest if you actually watched or read any of his work you would know he's a scientist, because he looks at myths from all over the world and asks why? Why would cosmology not devote more time to mythology? last time i checked mythology was all about the planets.

The work presented on the archetypes is good evidence, it's consistent. You can't deny the fixation mankind has with dragons and serpents why? why would my ancestors think these small stars gods? I can see Mars on a clear night, but only as a bright star, certainly doesn't look like a warrior or a god of war and not worthy of having a day of the week named after him.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 174
09-30-2011, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesun
Had to drag this back up sorry. To be honest if you actually watched or read any of his work you would know he's a scientist, because he looks at myths from all over the world and asks why? Why would cosmology not devote more time to mythology? last time i checked mythology was all about the planets.

The work presented on the archetypes is good evidence, it's consistent. You can't deny the fixation mankind has with dragons and serpents why? why would my ancestors think these small stars gods? I can see Mars on a clear night, but only as a bright star, certainly doesn't look like a warrior or a god of war and not worthy of having a day of the week named after him.
Forgive me for allowing myself to get dragged yet even further off topic.

If he was any kind of scientist he would be an anthropologist.

Our ancestors did not just look at the stars they watched them with a keen eye. Common it's not like they had the Conan, Letterman or Leno to occupy them. Over time they would see that the stars are for the most part static, only changing with the seasons. Then they would see one to eight that move a little every night and even on occasion seems to do a back step. Well that my friend is a special star able to do things that the common stars cannot. Then it is a small step to ascribe special god like powers to those wandering stars that can do something that the common stars cannot. See planets wander because they do this funny little back step as they sprint across the sky, well sprint compared to real stars.

Matter of fact the word we draw planet from means wanderer, (from Greek πλανήτης αστήρ planētēs astēr "wandering star"). Took Newton to explain the back step as I recall. Celestial mechanics and optical illusions caused by our vantage point of the very orbits of the planets.

Does not take a shaft of lightning joining the planets to give most of the world's cultures dragons. Snakes are very common. Snakes are dangerous. Some snakes can almost swallow a small adult. One of the most common phobias are you guessed it snakes. Not all dragons have legs after all, rainbow serpent of New Zealand's dream time and the feathered serpent of the South Americas come to mind. But most of the rest do. The further west you go the less like a snake dragons look. If Talbott is using snake like dragons to justify this notion that a bolt of lightning once speared the planets well he chose poor justification.

Forgive me if the next paragraph offends anyone but I think the genetic record is factor on this and I am only recalling what I remember of a documentary on the subject.

Why do so many cultures have dragons? Why are there similarities between ancient Mexican and Chinese art? Consider the migration of human genetics. It all comes from Africa. First wave out of Africa looks to be the Aboriginal people of New Zealand, New Guinea and Australia. Then Those who would one day become the people of India and China, (both India and Japan call dragons naga by the way). Third and last are the people who would be named for the Caucasus Mountains. From India and China it looks that the people who became the Olmecs, Aztec and Maya crossed the land bridge into America. There is plenty of chance for common, (shared), myths to be carried by those ancestral migrants.

Consider what could be argued to be the most traveled culture of Europe. The Rus, (Viking), myths are called indoeuropean. Indo-European, indo as in India. Not too far a reach for the Rus, (Vikings) to visit India. The Rus, (Vikings), got around. They even invaded Constantinople in what is today Turkey. Too easy to explain why most cultures have dragons really.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 175
09-30-2011, 03:12 PM
Pretty sure Kepler did planetary motion before Newton, Newton used gravity to explain why they moved as they did.

As for Captain Crazyalot, Ignore him, he is literally bug **** crazy, probably thinks David Ikye has some cracking ideas.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 176
09-30-2011, 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
Pretty sure Kepler did planetary motion before Newton, Newton used gravity to explain why they moved as they did.

As for Captain Crazyalot, Ignore him, he is literally bug **** crazy, probably thinks David Ikye has some cracking ideas.
Kepler! Thank you and sorry I forgot. I think you are right on both accounts but I have been where he is. Let's hope I have gotten better and Crazyalot will too.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 177
10-01-2011, 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Kepler! Thank you and sorry I forgot. I think you are right on both accounts but I have been where he is. Let's hope I have gotten better and Crazyalot will too.
Yup. Kepler figured out the whole no such thing as circles, but he could never figure out why. Newton introducing gravity explained ellipses. Einstein's Relativity filled in some of the areas that were a bit fuzzy, such as why some of the orbits are the way they are.

I also feel the need to point out how he keeps saying that you can measure location empirically using Latitude and Longitude, which require the existence of time to calculate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 178
10-01-2011, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Forgive me for allowing myself to get dragged yet even further off topic.

If he was any kind of scientist he would be an anthropologist.

Our ancestors did not just look at the stars they watched them with a keen eye. Common it's not like they had the Conan, Letterman or Leno to occupy them. Over time they would see that the stars are for the most part static, only changing with the seasons. Then they would see one to eight that move a little every night and even on occasion seems to do a back step. Well that my friend is a special star able to do things that the common stars cannot. Then it is a small step to ascribe special god like powers to those wandering stars that can do something that the common stars cannot. See planets wander because they do this funny little back step as they sprint across the sky, well sprint compared to real stars.

Matter of fact the word we draw planet from means wanderer, (from Greek πλανήτης αστήρ planētēs astēr "wandering star"). Took Newton to explain the back step as I recall. Celestial mechanics and optical illusions caused by our vantage point of the very orbits of the planets.
Curious, you seem intent to write this off as "way off topic" when it's in fact all relative. The Archetypes are key here. All characters in mythology represent planets.

Just take Saturn as one example, Saturn's day, ancient religons celebrate(d) their sabbath on Saturday, one of them still does to this day. Saturn has many different names from all cultures around the world. Father of the race, Primevil Sun, First Sun, Best Sun, Sol, Helios, El, God King, Kronos, Father of Kings, Prototype King, The Good King, Universal Monach, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Shamash. Saturn a God King? A tiny star compared to our Sun but our ancestors thought it to be the First Sun? The collective memory of mankind verses a mathematical theory of two men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Does not take a shaft of lightning joining the planets to give most of the world's cultures dragons. Snakes are very common. Snakes are dangerous. Some snakes can almost swallow a small adult. One of the most common phobias are you guessed it snakes. Not all dragons have legs after all, rainbow serpent of New Zealand's dream time and the feathered serpent of the South Americas come to mind. But most of the rest do. The further west you go the less like a snake dragons look. If Talbott is using snake like dragons to justify this notion that a bolt of lightning once speared the planets well he chose poor justification.

Forgive me if the next paragraph offends anyone but I think the genetic record is factor on this and I am only recalling what I remember of a documentary on the subject.

Why do so many cultures have dragons? Why are there similarities between ancient Mexican and Chinese art? Consider the migration of human genetics. It all comes from Africa. First wave out of Africa looks to be the Aboriginal people of New Zealand, New Guinea and Australia. Then Those who would one day become the people of India and China, (both India and Japan call dragons naga by the way). Third and last are the people who would be named for the Caucasus Mountains. From India and China it looks that the people who became the Olmecs, Aztec and Maya crossed the land bridge into America. There is plenty of chance for common, (shared), myths to be carried by those ancestral migrants.

Consider what could be argued to be the most traveled culture of Europe. The Rus, (Viking), myths are called indoeuropean. Indo-European, indo as in India. Not too far a reach for the Rus, (Vikings) to visit India. The Rus, (Vikings), got around. They even invaded Constantinople in what is today Turkey. Too easy to explain why most cultures have dragons really.
I don't think you understand, dragon, serpent, goddess, mother goddess, beautiful and terrifying, mother land, comet=long haired, Anthene, Medussa, Ishtar, Great Star are all Venus. Why would our ancestors think Venus a comet? Why would she be both beautiful and terrifying.

Going by your anology, Thor (Jupiter) would need his Mjollnir (Mars) to come down to earth and kill a tiny snake? Viking warriors from medevil scandinavia were scared of snakes? so much fear did they have they made up a legend about Mars having lightning as his weapon and coming all the way down to earth to zap snakes? not likely. The Vikings were in awe of Mars and their thunder god, so much so they built their whole warrior society around him, purely based on how furious in battle he was against the serpent/dragon/Venus.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 179
10-01-2011, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesun
Curious, you seem intent to write this off as "way off topic" when it's in fact all relative. The Archetypes are key here. All characters in mythology represent planets.

Just take Saturn as one example, Saturn's day, ancient religons celebrate(d) their sabbath on Saturday, one of them still does to this day. Saturn has many different names from all cultures around the world. Father of the race, Primevil Sun, First Sun, Best Sun, Sol, Helios, El, God King, Kronos, Father of Kings, Prototype King, The Good King, Universal Monach, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Shamash. Saturn a God King? A tiny star compared to our Sun but our ancestors thought it to be the First Sun? The collective memory of mankind verses a mathematical theory of two men.



I don't think you understand, dragon, serpent, goddess, mother goddess, beautiful and terrifying, mother land, comet=long haired, Anthene, Medussa, Ishtar, Great Star are all Venus. Why would our ancestors think Venus a comet? Why would she be both beautiful and terrifying.

Going by your anology, Thor (Mars) would need his Mjollnir (thunder hammer) to come down to earth and kill a tiny snake? Viking warriors from medevil scandinavia were scared of snakes? so much fear did they have they made up a legend about Mars having lightning as his weapon and coming all the way down to earth to zap snakes? not likely. The Vikings were in awe of Mars their thunder god, so much so they built their whole warrior society around him, purely based on how furious in battle he was against the serpent/dragon/Venus.
Woden, (Odin) was the Norse god of lightning, Wednsday, (Woden's day), is named for him. Odin is the central mythological character. Thor was the god of thunder, (that's right the sound that Woden's lightning bolts make when they strike). Get your mythology straight. For that matter Friday is named for Freyja, (we call her Freya nowadays), and Freyja's animal companions were cats not snakes. One primary goddess that does not follow your pattern.

I actually studied mythology and astronomy in college. Wanna keep playing?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 180
10-01-2011, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Woden, (Odin) was the Norse god of lightning, Wednsday, (Woden's day), is named for him. Odin is the central mythological character. Thor was the god of thunder, (that's right the sound that Woden's lightning bolts make when they strike). Get your mythology straight. For that matter Friday is named for Freyja, (we call her Freya nowadays), and Freyja's animal companions were cats not snakes. One primary goddess that does not follow your pattern.

I actually studied mythology and astronomy in college. Wanna keep playing?
You're missing the major point, these gods are planets. Thor was the thunder god, you got that right. But who was Venus again?

Friday
The day in honor of the Norse goddess Frigg.
In Old High German this day was called frigedag.
To the Romans this day was sacred to the goddess VENUS, and was known as dies veneris.

French: vendredi; Italian: venerdi; Spanish: viernes.
German: Freitag ; Dutch: vrijdag.

Mars battled Venus, Venus has a dualality, she's the princess and the dragon, St George and the dragon saves the princess, beowolf fights his mother, King Arthur battles his incestous son after being deceived by his sister.

Just so you know Odin is in fact Mercury. He doesn't join the play until later.
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