Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
09-24-2011, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deradex View Post
First its 40 k x 4 m8.
Nope, it does about 40k total. And thats usually including at least one crit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deradex View Post
TS is absolutly ok. The super crits only happends in PVE because the NPC doesnt activate anything to protect themself. They dumb like rocks, flying with 1/4 impulse and low def and dont activate anything when FOMM and APB is on them....
Wrong again, I got 30-70k hits on a pretty regular basis in pvp against well buffed targets before i stopped using spread... and that was on a science ship with no other tac buffs.

Nice try.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
09-24-2011, 03:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
I think the best would be to swap dmg calculation methods between HYT and Spread. No need to nerf something back into not-used category again.

Tricobalts are fine i think, they do not require any boff investment and once skill tree is fixed and you will buff your torp dmg in general with single skill, tricobalts would profit the most.
I am not sure it's that easy to reverse them.

High Yield Torpedo creates 2, 3 or 5 projectiles. (or a heavy torp, but let's keep that in mind for later)
Torpedo Spread creates 1-9 projecties (depending on rank on targets). The animation for each projectile basically looks like 4 torpedoes, but it is only one.

Each projectilce created inflicts damage, and can hit separately, and can crit separately.

To change TS to follow a HYT model, they would need to split each projectile into multiple torpedoes. This would require an AoE that can hit a target 4 times, basically. I suspect this tech simply does not exist.

To change HYT to follow the TS model, this would mean that it would fire only one projectile.But now what do you with the Heavy Torps created by some torps? Do you buff their damage so the heavy torp effect becomes "viable" again? But risk creating just another uber-crit weapon? Or don't you do that, and keep these torps useless?

I am afraid the only "easy" way out of this is to cut the TS damage down to something like 25 % of HYT. Then it crits not even remotely as hard as now (though it still has better crit potential)

Or they have to figure a way to make Torpedo Spread either not crit at all, or change the critical damage calculation based on a lower damage value. I don't know if that's possible, either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
09-24-2011, 03:37 AM
Hmmm... How about giving Torpedo: Spread an inherent Critical Severity reduction? Say, -50% Critical Severity (thereby negating baseline Critical Severity, but still allowing 'some' Critical damage modification from skillpoint investment and weapon [CrtD] modifiers)... Could also impose a Critical Hit reduction in a similar fashion, to represent that the damage is more spread out? We know that skills and weapon modifiers can give positive OR negative modifiers to various variables (alliteration, FTW), might this be an effective fix?

Just some thoughts,
-BRJ
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
09-24-2011, 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
Hmmm... How about giving Torpedo: Spread an inherent Critical Severity reduction? Say, -50% Critical Severity (thereby negating baseline Critical Severity, but still allowing 'some' Critical damage modification from skillpoint investment and weapon [CrtD] modifiers)... Could also impose a Critical Hit reduction in a similar fashion, to represent that the damage is more spread out? We know that skills and weapon modifiers can give positive OR negative modifiers to various variables (alliteration, FTW), might this be an effective fix?

Just some thoughts,
-BRJ
Crits should be removed completely from TS, and a damage reduction of 40-50% would be welcomed. Right now they are game breaking. When a sci ship can out damage an escort with just torpedo damage, things need looking at. i know the numbers at the end of a match mean nothing, as most of the damage is DOT which in all honesty is an almost useless indicator of skill, but what you can see is the fact that sci ships are now doing enough damage to get 12-15 kills in arena matches. Before spread, you were looking at 1-2 kills.

Hitting everyone, all the time with massive damage is just stupid, I actually think that TS is worse than old FAW was, as it has the ability to instagib an entire team if you use it right. Its almost on par with CSV, the way it used to be
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
09-24-2011, 05:49 AM
Torp spread is the dumbest thing that Craptic has done to this game since lauch. It has removed any measure of skill needed to pop someone. If you can fire TS at a group someone' always has one shield facing down and the crits are off the charts. It has made me walk away from this game. I seriously can't imagine what people are thinking when this went through tribble testing then got put live. My only thought is the devs wanted to commit career suicide. Have fun in free to play!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
09-24-2011, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aractoch
I seriously can't imagine what people are thinking when this went through tribble testing then got put live. My only thought is the devs wanted to commit career suicide. Have fun in free to play!
I'm not sure TS immediately looked bad on Tribble. Using one copy on one ship with very infrequent PvP wouldn't show off the problem. I remember people voicing a little concern, but not as much as when FAW first got over-buffed.

From the sound of it, changing torp spread to fire multiple projectiles could help a lot. It would make crits more common, but they'd be smaller, and it would be unlikely that every shot in a volley would crit. If the hits were separated by a fraction of a second, that would also increase the chance of shields going up between hits.

I'd like to point out that if TS were as OP as Old New FAW, we'd see cruisers running around loaded with 3 torpedoes forward. Escorts have better mobility for lining up torpedo shots, and they're still mostly using one launcher, which has always been pretty common for escorts. That suggests that players who can run 125 weapon power most of the time don't find TS to be much more useful that their ordinary cannon or beam skills.

Science Vessels are using the crap out of torpedoes now, but they've always been pretty common for SVs. I kind of of think the problem is that the science powers in general are so effective with little or no weapon power. My shield-stripper SV was fine before it's torpedoes got buffed. The billion SS SVs out there were fine without torpedoes being buffed.

Anyway, if TS were badly broken we'd see ships that traditionally went all beams or cannons switching to torpedoes. So fixes should start small, and calculating damage the same way as HYT is calculated seems like a good step.
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# 17 Spreed Damage
09-24-2011, 07:50 AM
It is not as powerful as it sound. Why becouse the animation must happen before the damage is done. If you got a fast ship you can just fly away and not get hurt. Some Torp Spreds like Plasma can have a very long animation.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 18
09-24-2011, 08:29 AM
Torp spread looked Heinous on tribble. I knew what it was going to be when I rolled it on tribble.

I made several detailed posts as to why it was bad. Heck I think most of us did that tested it and it was pushed on through, unchanged.

But hey it's fine! you can roll Double Barrel style so obviously it's balanced.This is the greatest game ever!

It's not like I'm one shotting enemy teams through their shields or anything...oh wait.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
09-24-2011, 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeves
It is not as powerful as it sound. Why becouse the animation must happen before the damage is done. If you got a fast ship you can just fly away and not get hurt. Some Torp Spreds like Plasma can have a very long animation.
No. You can "outrun" the animation of non-heavy torps, but you will still get hit by the damage. Ask the poor BoPs who run 20k out into cloak and then get smacked by all the torp damage before the animations catch up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
09-24-2011, 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
I'm not sure TS immediately looked bad on Tribble. Using one copy on one ship with very infrequent PvP wouldn't show off the problem. I remember people voicing a little concern, but not as much as when FAW first got over-buffed.
I think I was one of the first to mention that the apparant way the skill worked would lead to more powerful crits. It seems I might be on some devs list ignore, or that was just not investigated further, because no one excpected it to crit that hard. Though the numbers were probably already all there, someone just had to add them up.

Quote:
I'd like to point out that if TS were as OP as Old New FAW, we'd see cruisers running around loaded with 3 torpedoes forward. Escorts have better mobility for lining up torpedo shots, and they're still mostly using one launcher, which has always been pretty common for escorts. That suggests that players who can run 125 weapon power most of the time don't find TS to be much more useful that their ordinary cannon or beam skills.
Torpedoes never have been the ideal weapon for Cruisers. BFAW worked great for Cruisers, since they maneuver slowly and really on plenty of beam arrays. Torpedo Spread is the weapon of Escorts and Science Vessels. For Science Vessel, they key advantage is that they don't need weapons power to gain high damage potential and spike potential now.

I think TS is pretty much a Science Vessel's weapon. You can load on the shield drains if you want to do everything yourself, or you just provide some random crits for your team alongside with all the crowd control abiltiies that make healers and DPS less effective.

Quote:
Science Vessels are using the crap out of torpedoes now, but they've always been pretty common for SVs. I kind of of think the problem is that the science powers in general are so effective with little or no weapon power. My shield-stripper SV was fine before it's torpedoes got buffed. The billion SS SVs out there were fine without torpedoes being buffed.
Yup, my shield drain build always relied primarily on torpedoes. But I had real sacrifices to make, I just couldn't get good damage output and my spike potential was still not as good. Now it's better than ever - with a power that's thematically is more an AoE / crowd control power than a Spike power.
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