Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Engin in a Multi Vec ?
09-24-2011, 07:51 PM
Hi all,

So I hit vice admiral, did all the STF's a few times now, and have enjoyed the PVE side of things in my Galaxy retrofit as a Engin, but now I am looking at PVP.

I tried my hand at PVP a few times, but it seems like no matter what I do, I can't do well with my ship. II know I will get heat for this, but is it just a matter of more practice on my part or is the galaxy reto just not built for PVP?

I was considering flying a Multi Vec, can a engin do so or is that limited to Tac officers?
If it is possible, any fellow engin guys out there with some advice or comments on if this is worthwhile to switch ships?

Thanks, I don't often PVP, but I figure I would try it out while I wait for more content.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
09-24-2011, 08:06 PM
it's not restricted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
09-24-2011, 09:47 PM
I have seen that ship perform well in PvP. Just remember that you aren't going to do a lot of DPS in it, rather you will be able to take a beating, and heal others. Anybody can fly any ship. Just today I saw someone fly a shuttle in a Capture and Hold! I have seen a science officer in the Defiant, and an engineer in the fleet escort.
It all depends on what you want to do. I put my Eng VA toon in the Intrepid-R, and it works great in PvP. It all depends on what you want to do, and what your play style is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
09-24-2011, 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamRadio18
I have seen that ship perform well in PvP. Just remember that you aren't going to do a lot of DPS in it, rather you will be able to take a beating, and heal others. Anybody can fly any ship. Just today I saw someone fly a shuttle in a Capture and Hold! I have seen a science officer in the Defiant, and an engineer in the fleet escort.
It all depends on what you want to do. I put my Eng VA toon in the Intrepid-R, and it works great in PvP. It all depends on what you want to do, and what your play style is.
Well, In PVE i built this character to tank, I do it very well.

But when I enter PVP, if I try to tank and get the enemy's attention, they focus fire and take me out. I last through all my defensive powers, but as soon as I reach a gap in all my cool downs, I get overwhelmed. Also, being in a large ship, I am easy to identify and the enemy will focus on me.

I often enter into PVP as a pick up group, not with a fleet team...so far, no one in these groups heals me or backs me up. Sometimes, it's me and all tac/escort team. The above also happens when I focus on healing others, I become the prime target.

Even with all Very rare gear on beams and full borg gear, I am unable to get very many kills....(I don't know if this is because I focused on tetryon, I just like blue beams from a role play stand point, and it was slightly less skill points to invest then Anti or Poloron)...Again, once the enemy team figures out that I am the weak link they all cordinate, so I don't have much time to get a kill.

Maybe it would go better for me if I could get a solid fleet team to work with ?

I just though going into a defiant with a cloak would help me a bit, as the ship is smaller, and even some cloaking after death would help shift focus away from me a bit...Or the multi vec might have some improved damage options as I could put some tac BOF with better skills for pvp as all I have on the galaxy retro is beam over load 1 and High Yield 2.

If my team could out kill them by picking the enemy off while I tank and take a death, but we still got the win...I would be fine with that.
If I could help the team win by getting more kills and doing some tanking, with a few less deaths...I would be fine with that.
But to rack up the most deaths, the least kills, and our team still lose....I just want to improve ^_^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
09-25-2011, 03:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielsun
Well, In PVE i built this character to tank, I do it very well.

But when I enter PVP, if I try to tank and get the enemy's attention, they focus fire and take me out. I last through all my defensive powers, but as soon as I reach a gap in all my cool downs, I get overwhelmed. Also, being in a large ship, I am easy to identify and the enemy will focus on me.

I often enter into PVP as a pick up group, not with a fleet team...so far, no one in these groups heals me or backs me up. Sometimes, it's me and all tac/escort team. The above also happens when I focus on healing others, I become the prime target.

Even with all Very rare gear on beams and full borg gear, I am unable to get very many kills....(I don't know if this is because I focused on tetryon, I just like blue beams from a role play stand point, and it was slightly less skill points to invest then Anti or Poloron)...Again, once the enemy team figures out that I am the weak link they all cordinate, so I don't have much time to get a kill.

Maybe it would go better for me if I could get a solid fleet team to work with ?

I just though going into a defiant with a cloak would help me a bit, as the ship is smaller, and even some cloaking after death would help shift focus away from me a bit...Or the multi vec might have some improved damage options as I could put some tac BOF with better skills for pvp as all I have on the galaxy retro is beam over load 1 and High Yield 2.

If my team could out kill them by picking the enemy off while I tank and take a death, but we still got the win...I would be fine with that.
If I could help the team win by getting more kills and doing some tanking, with a few less deaths...I would be fine with that.
But to rack up the most deaths, the least kills, and our team still lose....I just want to improve ^_^


Engineers, as far as captain classes go, do lousy damage. They have NO direct damage boosting ability. Tacs get a slew of them, Scis get sensor scan and arguably the best power in the game - SNB.



What engineers do get is survival buffs.
Yes, the EPS power transfer counts toward that as it boosts all power levels significantly - thereby boosting everything dependent on those power levels.Miracle worker is a skill always worth using. Nadion inversion is indirectly useful for some situations.


But overall: engineers do not get to buff their damage


They simply make the ship they use last longer - that ship can be of any class, it always profits from th engineers buffs.

That being said, the best ship for an engineer is, and thats kinda funny, a cruiser.

Why? well here is where game design schizophrenia sets in:

The engineer is the only class that can actually support a cruisers way of dealing damage (and increase it, curiously without having a direct skill for that), without sacrificing said cruisers survivability like TAC or SCI captains have to.


Cruiser 1x1:

Decide which type of cruiser you wish to be: team support or self centered.
Team support forgoes all aspiration of dealing damage and simply goes for maximum restoration potential. You often find star cruiser fill this role. And they are awesome in it.
They devote their boff power slots towards powers that are team applicable. Aux to sif, engineering team, extend shields, tss and hazard emitters along with the basic powers needed to keep themselves alive. Weapon selection will usually include a rude amount of chroniton mines and tricobalt torpedoes.


The self centered devote their slots to self survival and to the maintainability of maximum firepower.
This usually involves a lack of party friendly powers or rather the use of the smaller versions of those powers. Commonly used powers to increase damage potential include Directed energy modulation and power to weapons 3. The first used to slap on extra firepower to the energy weapons and the last to maximize those weapons potential.

You see cruisers have the uncanny characteristic to self-degrade their own firepower.

Due to the cruiser inherent lack of speed and agility, it is common to fit arrays. Now arrays do not deal as much damage per weapon as cannons but they can be combined into broadsides that actually put out quite some dps.


However ,as every arrays does degrade weapons power by 10, even the most basic, standard cruiser setup featuring 6 arrays and 2 torpedoes will already be losing 50 weapons power - cutting damage per array almost in half.

Here is where powers like power to weapons 3 come in - making sure you hover at around the 100 power mark instead of the 60 power mark. This is VERY significant. Keeping your weapons power up is of major importance if you ever wish to make your weapons count for something.

Engineers are suited to this precisely because you can sacrifice "tanking" power slots that other captain classes actually need when flying cruisers and instead opt for those that help you maintain damage.

You will NEVER have the burst potential or spikes of other ship classes in a cruiser, that is not their nature. (although there are exceptions to this, like in the form of the excelsior or the simple thing of using a tricobalt torpedo at the right moment).

A cruisers way of fighting really is: soaking up damage and dealing out a constant supply of your own. Because regardless of the other ship classes perks - they do run out of defenses at some point. and earlier than you. So you have to keep the pressure up and do not kid yourself: 7 or 8 arrays constantly firing at near peak damage WILL add up to some nasty dps. and once hitting hull can be very deceptive as far as the urgency to get away from them goes. Because the hul lis nor breaking down in large chunks fast but steadily instead. A bit to slow to be immediately worrying yet fast enough to actually kill you.



Now, as for your lack of success in pvp:



You are probably flying what the pvp community calls a Zombie cruiser (you basically just take up space in the team and serve as some sort of comic relief on the battlefield as far as the opfor is concerned.)

That basically means your choice of equipment and powers sucks. You probably unwittingly have build some sort of damage/tank/team-support hybrid. That is often the case for players.mostly engaged in pve. And its fixable.

First, we would need a proper listing of:
- Your equipment (weapons, consoles, what engines/shields/deflector you use)
- Your Bridge officers powers
- Do you have rare powers like beam overload3? aux to sif3? either on your current officers or those still unassigned? These 2 powers can push your choices into different directions.
- Got the excelsior?
- got one captain respecc left?


Once you provided that info we can talk actual builds.





A quick rundown of cruisers and quirks:

- Excelsior: ideal if you have beam overload 3. the burst of that power is substantial enough to make up for the loss in engineering boff slots.

- The Assault cruiser is hands down the best suited for the self centered route. it boats the highest base damage without sacrificing its engineering prowess the way the excel does (yep, that third tac console makes a lot of difference)

- Dreadnought: overall a ****tier AC - but looks awesome with the venture skin. A case for people who can stomach sacrificing some of the pure power of the AC. Hey and you get a cloak and a phaser lance out of the deal - neither is truly awesome but hey... you're not flying this ship because you care about the numbers game.)

- Galaxy Refit:
A Special case in that it allows you to attain escort like nimbleness for basically no relevant negative trade-off.

Lends itself to builds centered around dual phaser arrays, torpedoes due to the fact that it has the mobility to wield them effectively and is generally a good choice since It is hard to outmaneuver and get out of THIS ships broadside.

- Star cruisers:
Defense over defense over defense.
This ship is an onion. peel of one layer, another one pops up.

Its also the most deceptive cruiser as most people auto-asume it is build for healing. While it CAN be used for that and excels at it it is just as capable of doing high sustained damage as the Dread and Gal-refit are.

In combat this can actually get nastier than any of the other cruisers listed here because the added boon of hazard emitters increases their survivability quite a lot while doing nothing to curb their ability to unload a lot of beams at you.

As for getting a team of regulars:That naturally always helps, but it wont solve problems that spring from your own builds inadequacies ^^.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
09-25-2011, 03:48 AM
Star cruisers are the beans.

That is all.

But yes, give us more info on your build and we might be able to help.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
09-25-2011, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
Engineers, as far as captain classes go, do lousy damage. They have NO direct damage boosting ability. Tacs get a slew of them, Scis get sensor scan and arguably the best power in the game - SNB.



What engineers do get is survival buffs.
Yes, the EPS power transfer counts toward that as it boosts all power levels significantly - thereby boosting everything dependent on those power levels.Miracle worker is a skill always worth using. Nadion inversion is indirectly useful for some situations.


But overall: engineers do not get to buff their damage


They simply make the ship they use last longer - that ship can be of any class, it always profits from th engineers buffs.

That being said, the best ship for an engineer is, and thats kinda funny, a cruiser.

Why? well here is where game design schizophrenia sets in:

The engineer is the only class that can actually support a cruisers way of dealing damage (and increase it, curiously without having a direct skill for that), without sacrificing said cruisers survivability like TAC or SCI captains have to.


Cruiser 1x1:

Decide which type of cruiser you wish to be: team support or self centered.
Team support forgoes all aspiration of dealing damage and simply goes for maximum restoration potential. You often find star cruiser fill this role. And they are awesome in it.
They devote their boff power slots towards powers that are team applicable. Aux to sif, engineering team, extend shields, tss and hazard emitters along with the basic powers needed to keep themselves alive. Weapon selection will usually include a rude amount of chroniton mines and tricobalt torpedoes.


The self centered devote their slots to self survival and to the maintainability of maximum firepower.
This usually involves a lack of party friendly powers or rather the use of the smaller versions of those powers. Commonly used powers to increase damage potential include Directed energy modulation and power to weapons 3. The first used to slap on extra firepower to the energy weapons and the last to maximize those weapons potential.

You see cruisers have the uncanny characteristic to self-degrade their own firepower.

Due to the cruiser inherent lack of speed and agility, it is common to fit arrays. Now arrays do not deal as much damage per weapon as cannons but they can be combined into broadsides that actually put out quite some dps.


However ,as every arrays does degrade weapons power by 10, even the most basic, standard cruiser setup featuring 6 arrays and 2 torpedoes will already be losing 50 weapons power - cutting damage per array almost in half.

Here is where powers like power to weapons 3 come in - making sure you hover at around the 100 power mark instead of the 60 power mark. This is VERY significant. Keeping your weapons power up is of major importance if you ever wish to make your weapons count for something.

Engineers are suited to this precisely because you can sacrifice "tanking" power slots that other captain classes actually need when flying cruisers and instead opt for those that help you maintain damage.

You will NEVER have the burst potential or spikes of other ship classes in a cruiser, that is not their nature. (although there are exceptions to this, like in the form of the excelsior or the simple thing of using a tricobalt torpedo at the right moment).

A cruisers way of fighting really is: soaking up damage and dealing out a constant supply of your own. Because regardless of the other ship classes perks - they do run out of defenses at some point. and earlier than you. So you have to keep the pressure up and do not kid yourself: 7 or 8 arrays constantly firing at near peak damage WILL add up to some nasty dps. and once hitting hull can be very deceptive as far as the urgency to get away from them goes. Because the hul lis nor breaking down in large chunks fast but steadily instead. A bit to slow to be immediately worrying yet fast enough to actually kill you.



Now, as for your lack of success in pvp:



You are probably flying what the pvp community calls a Zombie cruiser (you basically just take up space in the team and serve as some sort of comic relief on the battlefield as far as the opfor is concerned.)

That basically means your choice of equipment and powers sucks. You probably unwittingly have build some sort of damage/tank/team-support hybrid. That is often the case for players.mostly engaged in pve. And its fixable.

First, we would need a proper listing of:
- Your equipment (weapons, consoles, what engines/shields/deflector you use)
- Your Bridge officers powers
- Do you have rare powers like beam overload3? aux to sif3? either on your current officers or those still unassigned? These 2 powers can push your choices into different directions.
- Got the excelsior?
- got one captain respecc left?


Once you provided that info we can talk actual builds.





A quick rundown of cruisers and quirks:

- Excelsior: ideal if you have beam overload 3. the burst of that power is substantial enough to make up for the loss in engineering boff slots.

- The Assault cruiser is hands down the best suited for the self centered route. it boats the highest base damage without sacrificing its engineering prowess the way the excel does (yep, that third tac console makes a lot of difference)

- Dreadnought: overall a ****tier AC - but looks awesome with the venture skin. A case for people who can stomach sacrificing some of the pure power of the AC. Hey and you get a cloak and a phaser lance out of the deal - neither is truly awesome but hey... you're not flying this ship because you care about the numbers game.)

- Galaxy Refit:
A Special case in that it allows you to attain escort like nimbleness for basically no relevant negative trade-off.

Lends itself to builds centered around dual phaser arrays, torpedoes due to the fact that it has the mobility to wield them effectively and is generally a good choice since It is hard to outmaneuver and get out of THIS ships broadside.

- Star cruisers:
Defense over defense over defense.
This ship is an onion. peel of one layer, another one pops up.

Its also the most deceptive cruiser as most people auto-asume it is build for healing. While it CAN be used for that and excels at it it is just as capable of doing high sustained damage as the Dread and Gal-refit are.

In combat this can actually get nastier than any of the other cruisers listed here because the added boon of hazard emitters increases their survivability quite a lot while doing nothing to curb their ability to unload a lot of beams at you.

As for getting a team of regulars:That naturally always helps, but it wont solve problems that spring from your own builds inadequacies ^^.

Well,

BOF's =Engin-Rotate Shield Frequency 3 &1, Emergency to shield 3 & 1, Engin Team 3 &1, Aux to Struc 1, Emergency to weapons 1...Tac-High Yield 2, Beam overload 1...Sci-Hazard team 2 & 1

*(I know there is global cool down, but I wanted the maxim hull tanking potential with options of healing others...shields where a second focus.

Gear= Very rare tetryon beam arrays (3 front, 3 back) Rear admiral lower half that I got from marks of exploration trade in (chart B tran) ..*(Working on the upper half vershion from emblem trade in). Shield, Engin, science array, device = the Very rare borg set that gives a tractor beam ability and other buffs. Other devices = Red Anti matter from life time, That defense resitance device that you get from the breen (I forget the name, It's like +12 all resistance and some defense) , last slot is empty.

*Other weapons-Very Rare lower rear admiral quantum Torp from Marks and in the back, that scaling launcher that shoots out cloaked tractor beam mines.

*I often run with full power to weapons

Consoles- Very rare from mark trade ins +to beam weapons, + to Tetryon, EPS power transfer boost 3 of them), Sci + to hazard emmiters, borg console from the set, one resistance to energy / Kinetic.

Skill point wise I have invested in virtualy every skill that benefits the bof skills I have as well as ones that boost Mirical worker. In science skills I only picked a couple to max out that boost Hazard emitter powers. I picked up all of the Tac skills that improve Crits and invested in all Ship points along the way that boost hull, speed, manuver etc.

I put points in Beam array and Tetryon.

I only have the galaxy retro fit, using the saucer sepration does not seem asuseful as I seem to die even quicker once I become the enemy teams punching bag...or zombie as you put it hehe.

I have very limited points in ground ability, but have had very little problems in PVP or PVE since I got the Very rare shield, armor , Kit from emblems for me and 4 officers. I often use the kit for Combat supply 3, Mortor 3, Shield restore 3, Seeker drone 3. **But on the vice admiral Terradome specificly this does not seem good enough and I have to go with the kit for Shield, Dome, medical, turret 3 if I am on a all tac team and no other healers.

Basicly in PVE i never die....I never need a sci to heal me (Although great if they do ^_^) I always charge in and just start soaking up damge. But in PVP, I will charge in and then even switching all power to shields and running (Hoping that other team members will start picking off the targets chasing me, this makes sense to me since it lines up there shots and don't have to worry about return fire, leaving the enemy to choose...keep trying to spend time killing me or get off me and fire at who is on there tail)... I will find an entire fleet of ships following me. I will last a couple minuets, but then pop.

I dunno, I feel like the time I last should be enough for my team to focus fire and take out ships as my wing man. But it never works out that way.

Thanks for the info, I will think about trying emergency to weapons 3 and Direct energy mod...*(Had direct energy mod improved?...I played at launch and remember trying it in PVE but often could not even tell if it did anything, so I basicly never used it again. The Shield penetration seems very small and not worth it compared to better level 3 powers)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
09-25-2011, 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielsun
Well,

BOF's =Engin-Rotate Shield Frequency 3 &1, Emergency to shield 3 & 1, Engin Team 3 &1, Aux to Struc 1, Emergency to weapons 1...Tac-High Yield 2, Beam overload 1...Sci-Hazard team 2 & 1
I presume you mean Reverse Shield Polarity. RSF is a captain power. Get shot of RSP3 straight away and put in something more useful. Aux2Sif3 for example, or Extend shields 3. I would probably also swap Eptw for EptA(aux) for your sci based heals. I would highly recommend running a copy of Transfer Shield strength in one of your sci slots. I would also recommend Tac Team, it is the new must have. It is also worth considering Attack Pattern Delta. Torpedo spread is also a bit stronger than high yield nowadays, though it's a bit cheesy

Quote:
*Other weapons-Very Rare lower rear admiral quantum Torp from Marks and in the back, that scaling launcher that shoots out cloaked tractor beam mines.
Tractor mines are....meh....If you are going to use mines, chronitons are probably the way to go. They are great for slowing down opponents. Personally I hate mines. I would recommend all beams or torps and beams.

Quote:
*I often run with full power to weapons
I would recommend taking maybe 10pts off your weapons and putting them in shields instead. The higher your base shield power, the higher resistance they have against attack.

Quote:
Consoles- Very rare from mark trade ins +to beam weapons, + to Tetryon, EPS power transfer boost 3 of them), Sci + to hazard emmiters, borg console from the set, one resistance to energy / Kinetic.
3x EPS????? For serious? Nope, nope, nope. You definitely want the +35% shield cap console, and either a power boost to one of your systems, or some armour.

Quote:
Skill point wise I have invested in virtualy every skill that benefits the bof skills I have as well as ones that boost Mirical worker. In science skills I only picked a couple to max out that boost Hazard emitter powers. I picked up all of the Tac skills that improve Crits and invested in all Ship points along the way that boost hull, speed, manuver etc.

I put points in Beam array and Tetryon.

I only have the galaxy retro fit, using the saucer sepration does not seem asuseful as I seem to die even quicker once I become the enemy teams punching bag...or zombie as you put it hehe.

I have very limited points in ground ability, but have had very little problems in PVP or PVE since I got the Very rare shield, armor , Kit from emblems for me and 4 officers. I often use the kit for Combat supply 3, Mortor 3, Shield restore 3, Seeker drone 3. **But on the vice admiral Terradome specificly this does not seem good enough and I have to go with the kit for Shield, Dome, medical, turret 3 if I am on a all tac team and no other healers.
No points in ground for me. Wasted points IMO.

Have you put points in "efficiency" and "performance"? An absolute must. Get as much points in those as you can. As well as Starship command, combat manoeuvres and battle strategy.

Quote:
Basicly in PVE i never die....
Because PvE is so pathetically easy a pigeon could peck at the keyboard and win. It does not prepare you for the reality of how good humans are at this game.

Quote:
But in PVP, I will charge in and then even switching all power to shields and running (Hoping that other team members will start picking off the targets chasing me...
"Captain kirks" are always the first to die. This is a team game above all else. You go in alone, you die alone.

General advice:

Learn keybinding. It can save your ***. At the very least you want to have distribute shields bound to something common, like space(fire), so that you are constantly balancing your shields.

Observe what others are up to, watch their buffs closely, learn to exploit them. Unbuffed targets are your friends

Join the OPvP chat channel and ask for assistance there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
09-25-2011, 05:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielsun
Basicly in PVE i never die....I never need a sci to heal me (Although great if they do ^_^) I always charge in and just start soaking up damge. But in PVP, I will charge in and then even switching all power to shields and running
Daniel san, you must wax on and wax off

Anyways... you're not in any danger when PvE'ing In PvP, think about being a force multiplier.

1. You have beam arrays that can deliver powerful sustained broadsides. You have escort teammates with very powerful burst damage capabilities and sci vessels that will harass and deter the enemy (Sci Vessels ARE NOT JUST HEALERS)
2. YOU AS A CRUISER can deliver strong support via healing your teammates. Yes, even if you want to be a dps'er you will still have access to powerful support abilities like extend shields, engineering team 3s, etc. etc.
3. If you manage to keep your escort buddy healed, you will have your broadsides AND his cannons firing at the enemy. Always always always think about your teammates, even if in pugs they may not think of you. Fly with a group of friends that want to pvp, learn from each other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
09-25-2011, 08:52 AM
don't listen to the nay-sayers! engi-escort is great!

Try this:
4xDBB fore
3xTurret aft

APD3&2
FAW3
TssEngines2
TssShields2
2x TT1
EPtoS2+1
TSS3
HE2
ST1

slap on the borg gear, and you'll have a massively tanky escort that puts out great sustained damage!
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