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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
09-27-2011, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
We are attempting to address several different issues without generating new issues:
  • Individual mines other than tricobalts and chronitons are pretty much worthless
  • The only effective way to make mines of any sort work is by strafing runs, which turn them more into "bombs" than "mines"
  • The dispersal patterns are bugged and are far wider than they should be
  • Mine spamming has gotten to be excessive and severely detrimental to general gameplay and PvP in particular
  • Mine spamming has no negative consequences for the user, thus encouraging mindless spamming
  • Targetable torpedos such as tricobalts are rarely effective outside of strafing runs (see above, re: mines)

The proposal the original poster mentioned referred to explosions from torpedoes and mines not being triggerable by friendlies, but - with their same fairly modest AoE - affecting any nearby friendlies.

Yes, griefing is a concern with this proposal. The AoE is small, and friendlies won't trigger it. While we want to see people using targetable torpedoes and mines as, well, torpedoes and mines, rather than bombs (and trust me, I use them exactly that way myself in my Kar'fi) we recognize this means that the way targetable torpedoes and mines in general need to be looked at.

In the latest, unreleased code branch, torpedoes (mines possibly as well - I can't remember offhand) get the same defense bonus we are granting carrier fighter pets; we are not against improving this further if that proves necessary.

We are also considering increasing the effectiveness of mines, reducing their spread (which is actually bugged on Holodeck), but increasing their GCD. Other approaches are open for discussion.

We are, also, aware that even with a small AoE, this would make PUGs more problematic beyond what they already are and will exacerbate Tac Escorts/Raptors, and both of these issues deserve attention.

I have been following most of the related threads closely along with research and analysis internally, and continue to be interested in any constructive observations and ideas for how to address the above Gordian Knot.
This makes more sense and probably would've helped to dispel worries earlier. I like your longer explanations for things as they generally seem well-rounded.

Are there any other plans for a balance pass on torpedoes aside from the recent GCD and these changes? i.e. habving procs play a more ssignificant role and varying torpedoes more (i.e. one torp is designed more for carrier/mine spam?)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
09-27-2011, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Are there any other plans for a balance pass on torpedoes aside from the recent GCD and these changes? i.e. habving procs play a more ssignificant role and varying torpedoes more (i.e. one torp is designed more for carrier/mine spam?)
Yes; partially this will happen through the space skill tree revamp, partially it is happening now, and, of course, we're open to any additional ideas that surface either internally or in the community as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
09-27-2011, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
We are, also, aware that even with a small AoE, this would make PUGs more problematic beyond what they already are and will exacerbate some weaknesses currently evident with Tac Escorts/Raptors, and both of these issues deserve attention.

I have been following most of the related threads closely along with research and analysis internally, and continue to be interested in any constructive observations and ideas for how to address the above Gordian Knot.
What about tying AoE explosion damage to target ship size, so smaller ships take less AoE damage than larger ships? Base it on crew size or something. This assumes that the various explosive weapons generate not only the force but the medium by which damage is transferred to targets (as space has no inherent transfer medium). So escorts and BoP's would take less AoE explosion damage than a cruiser or carrier but they'd take the same damage from a direct hit. This also assumes STO's engine is capable of differentiating AoE damage by target variable other than distance.


Z
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
09-27-2011, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Yes; partially this will happen through the space skill tree revamp, partially it is happening now, and, of course, we're open to any additional ideas that surface either internally or in the community as well.
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
09-27-2011, 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zordar View Post
What about tying AoE explosion damage to target ship size, so smaller ships take less AoE damage than larger ships? Base it on crew size or something. This assumes that the various explosive weapons generate not only the force but the medium by which damage is transferred to targets (as space has no inherent transfer medium). So escorts and BoP's would take less AoE explosion damage than a cruiser or carrier but they'd take the same damage from a direct hit. This also assumes STO's engine is capable of differentiating AoE damage by target variable other than distance.
This is technically feasible, yes. It seems potentially a little non-intuitive for players to me, but I will bring it up internally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
It's an interesting idea. Hm.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
09-27-2011, 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
We are attempting to address several different issues without generating new issues:
  • Individual mines other than tricobalts and chronitons are pretty much worthless
  • The only effective way to make mines of any sort work is by strafing runs, which turn them more into "bombs" than "mines"
  • The dispersal patterns are bugged and are far wider than they should be
  • Mine spamming has gotten to be excessive and severely detrimental to gameplay in general and PvP in particular
  • Mine spamming has no negative consequences for the user, thus encouraging mindless spamming
  • Targetable torpedos such as tricobalts are rarely effective outside of strafing runs (see above, re: mines)

The proposal the original poster mentioned referred to explosions from torpedoes and mines not being triggerable by friendlies, but - with their same fairly modest AoE - affecting any nearby friendlies.

Yes, griefing is a concern with this proposal. The AoE is small, and friendlies won't trigger it. While we want to see people using targetable torpedoes and mines as, well, torpedoes and mines, rather than bombs (and trust me, I use them exactly that way myself in my Kar'fi) we recognize this means that the way targetable torpedoes and mines in general need to be looked at.

In the latest, unreleased code branch, torpedoes (mines possibly as well - I can't remember offhand) get the same defense bonus we are granting carrier fighter pets; we are not against improving this further if that proves necessary.

We are also considering increasing the effectiveness of mines, reducing their spread (which is actually bugged on Holodeck), but increasing their GCD. Other approaches are open for discussion.

We are, also, aware that even with a small AoE, this would make PUGs more problematic beyond what they already are and will exacerbate some weaknesses currently evident with Tac Escorts/Raptors, and both of these issues deserve attention.

I have been following most of the related threads closely along with research and analysis internally, and continue to be interested in any constructive observations and ideas for how to address the above Gordian Knot.
Don't forget the tac cruisers armed with cannons, we need to get up close and personal as well, not just escorts.

And on the topic of mines in general. They are a pretty bad idea in almost any combat situation in space in general. Space is really big and its so easy to fly in a straight line and not even encounter them. In the show they only work in certain circumstances. Cloaked, on a chock point, for example the wormhole.
In open space, they are just a waste of resources.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
09-27-2011, 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
It would definitely limit entity spam. It would make mines something you shouldn't ignore. You can limit the number of mines out by limiting the number of spawns (with Dispersal Patterns counting as one spawn). Mines would be more effective individually (Cloaking Tractor Mines I'm looking at you.)

Sometimes it the simplest of things which are best and non-obvious. I like it. I can get behind this suggestion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
09-27-2011, 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
Don't forget the tac cruisers armed with cannons, we need to get up close and personal as well, not just escorts.

And on the topic of mines in general. They are a pretty bad idea in almost any combat situation in space in general. Space is really big and its so easy to fly in a straight line and not even encounter them. In the show they only work in certain circumstances. Cloaked, on a chock point, for example the wormhole.
In open space, they are just a waste of resources.
Would love to see the following:

- Normal Launch: 1 mine
- Mine "Spread": 3-5 mines
- Special ability: Self-replication + Cloak (Sensor Scan and/or Science Team able to detect)

If you launch a single mine, and leave it unchecked, it should be able to self-replicate, first 2 mines, than 4 mines, upto a maximum of 10 mines. The same goes for the 3-5 mines, with the limit being at 10 mines. A sure-fire way of getting rid of the "minefield" would be to launch a torpedo spread, or a High Yield Torpedo into the field, detonating all at once. If you destroy 9 out of 10 mines, it would eventually begin to replicate again.

The self-replication + cloak ability is a direct inspiration from DS9 when they mined the wormhole. It was effective back then, surely it could be considered a possibility for 2409 ? If nothing else, i'd like to see the self-replication ability come into play at some point. Having Cloaked Mines would certainly help give Science captains an extra usage besides DPS/Healing.

In regards to dispersal patterns, perhaps one such pattern could be remade/added that specifically modifies the mine/mines to have the self-replication ability ?

In closing: 10 mines seems to me to be a good limit for both the Dispersal Pattern variant, as well as any single mine with Self-replication. Another option is to give Mines a small amount of hitpoints, so that they are not instantly destroyed by a random pulse weapon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
09-27-2011, 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Yes; partially this will happen through the space skill tree revamp, partially it is happening now, and, of course, we're open to any additional ideas that surface either internally or in the community as well.
Have you checked the proposal in my signature by any chance?
Please, if possible, make procs interesting without making them... well... like phasers.

Also, if you examine my post, the aux to shields power I suggest... why not give shield balancing to that power, and the cost is auxiliary is disabled for the duration...?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
09-27-2011, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
Yeah sounds good, but with 1 mine per launch for players without the dispersal pattern powers, the cooldown would need to be decreased.
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