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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
09-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Could Tyken's Rift be the AoE "cleanse" for the AoE of the Tric Rift?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
09-27-2011, 04:50 PM
I loathe and detest friendly fire. No fun at all. If you must enable this abomination, link it to difficulty so it doesn't kick in on normal.

And if you want the 'we're too close to fire torpedoes' feel, then just give them a minimum firing range, so that if you're too close you cannot fire them. Problem solved.

As for mines, what we have in this game are not mines - they're some sort of suicide bomber attack drone. They don't conform to IP, and if they're the cause of the problem then just remove the silly things.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
09-27-2011, 04:59 PM
Would this be a viable solution to the mines: limit how many can be out by any player at once and have them automatically cloak. The latter stops them from only being effective as bombs and the former stops the spam.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
09-27-2011, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Could Tyken's Rift be the AoE "cleanse" for the AoE of the Tric Rift?

Perhaps if Tyken's rift wasn't destroyed and targetable by aoe abilities it would be a viable counter to tric spam
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
09-27-2011, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
Don't forget the tac cruisers armed with cannons, we need to get up close and personal as well, not just escorts.
that reminds me.... Why are the best effective range of cannons so so so short ingame still?
Given the recent and proposed weapon changes why can't range be closer to 4km?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
09-27-2011, 07:25 PM
It's a shame there isn't a way to pull a Galaxy Quest with the mines we have in-game...it would be great to say Scramble Sensor enemy mines, trigger them to follow me and have them connect with the enemy instead as I drag them toward him...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
09-27-2011, 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
We are attempting to address several different issues without generating new issues:
  • Individual mines other than tricobalts and chronitons are pretty much worthless
  • The only effective way to make mines of any sort work is by strafing runs, which turn them more into "bombs" than "mines"
  • The dispersal patterns are bugged and are far wider than they should be
  • Mine spamming has gotten to be excessive and severely detrimental to gameplay in general and PvP in particular
  • Mine spamming has no negative consequences for the user, thus encouraging mindless spamming
  • Targetable torpedos such as tricobalts are rarely effective outside of strafing runs (see above, re: mines)

The proposal the original poster mentioned referred to explosions from torpedoes and mines not being triggerable by friendlies, but - with their same fairly modest AoE - affecting any nearby friendlies.

Yes, griefing is a concern with this proposal. The AoE is small, and friendlies won't trigger it. While we want to see people using targetable torpedoes and mines as, well, torpedoes and mines, rather than bombs (and trust me, I use them exactly that way myself in my Kar'fi) we recognize this means that the way targetable torpedoes and mines in general need to be looked at.

In the latest, unreleased code branch, torpedoes (mines possibly as well - I can't remember offhand) get the same defense bonus we are granting carrier fighter pets; we are not against improving this further if that proves necessary.

We are also considering increasing the effectiveness of mines, reducing their spread (which is actually bugged on Holodeck), but increasing their GCD. Other approaches are open for discussion.

We are, also, aware that even with a small AoE, this would make PUGs more problematic beyond what they already are and will exacerbate some weaknesses currently evident with Tac Escorts/Raptors, and both of these issues deserve attention.

I have been following most of the related threads closely along with research and analysis internally, and continue to be interested in any constructive observations and ideas for how to address the above Gordian Knot.
2 things i would like to see:

1. mines that can trigger each others detonation
2. mines that can be remotely detonated.

i think laying down mines in a line and actually detonating them, causing a chain reaction, trailing to the enemy and any others that cross the path should be a valid tactic, especially to deter, or set a distance from someone who may be making a close-in tail run attack on you.

these also need to be done on ground mines.. i want to be able to place multiple mines where i want them, and remote detonate. we have a remote bomb, but those cannot be laid out in groups. proximity detonation mines could be a good upgrade, in both space and ground, leaving remote detonation being the default.

THE TWO THINGS I HATE ABOUT GROUND MINES: 1. they dont quite lay where u want them. and 2. if you do get them generally where u want them.. some friendly walks/runs through them and they just slide around the ground like hockey pucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.

yes this please^^^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
09-27-2011, 09:02 PM
Well, give the fact that in cryptics case AOE means "right the fck next to you" i doubt this will have that much of an impact.



Torpedoes and mines already have an aoe, and you KNOW its range is.... limited.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
09-27-2011, 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Yes; partially this will happen through the space skill tree revamp, partially it is happening now, and, of course, we're open to any additional ideas that surface either internally or in the community as well.
Here is an idea. Specifically tweak photon torpedo high yield and spread to be different from quantum high yield and spread.

There is no reason to run torpedo buffs like HY on anything other than quantums. As the refire rate of maximum one tactical torpedo buff attack per 15s (if you run two copies)
The refire rate of photons plays no benefit and just offers weaker damage for the same skill that gives more affect on quantums.
Threfor there is no reason to run any other torpedoes other than quantums, if your using torpedo buffs like high yield.
Photon torpedo high yield should fire more torpedos for weaker damage per shot but more total damage. Say 3 for HY1, 5 For HY2 and 8 For HY3. This would actually go some way to correcting the photon torpedo vs quantum torpedo imbalance.

Also please nerf spread already so its not better than High Yield vs single targets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
09-27-2011, 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
[...]Yes, griefing is a concern with this proposal. The AoE is small, and friendlies won't trigger it. While we want to see people using targetable torpedoes and mines as, well, torpedoes and mines, rather than bombs (and trust me, I use them exactly that way myself in my Kar'fi) we recognize this means that the way targetable torpedoes and mines in general need to be looked at.

In the latest, unreleased code branch, torpedoes (mines possibly as well - I can't remember offhand) get the same defense bonus we are granting carrier fighter pets; we are not against improving this further if that proves necessary.
[...]
So you want to change this because torps/mines are not used in the way you wanted them to be used? While understandable I can't say I like this approach but this is a topic for another thread.

Ok let's take a look why noone uses them as mines/torps.

1) You can shoot them down. So any AoE dmg will kill them (FaW, CSV, GW...) with one hit.
2) They are slow/unmovable objects. In case of HY Plasma they are big green "shoot me" signs too.
3) Trics and mines (never used HY Plasma but probably those too) need to hit the hull to do dmg. To do this you have to keep the shields down or use the small 6 second shield regeneration window.
4) Concerning mines you have to find a way to make your target get close to them at the right time with shields down.

Currently the easiest solution for all these problems is to get really close before firing, to reduce the time a target has to react. And no FF you will add will prevent this. Even if you would make them not targetable or give them a def rate the problem will still exist because you still have to use this little window where your enemies shields are down. The other torps you can risk to fire at a distance because you fire them again in a couple of seconds. Using HY every 15/30sec. Trics you have to wait 1 minute before trying again.

To get away from the bomber you have to:
1) Make them not targetable.
2) Faster.
3) Lower recharge time.
4) As result of the above you have to reduce the damage and in the end create another useless torp because Quants will be better.

You will have to change so much you will basically create a new weapon. Sry but in case of Tric/HY Plasma I have no idea how you will make it work without making them useless. (Yeah I could have written this in the beginning so you don't have to read all of it. :p)



Concerning mines there are 2 major problems... spam and low dmg (proc too but that I will ignore for now).
One pretty good solution has already been mentioned by MVS5191. I want to add maybe you can make the number of mines depending on skill points spent. Not only how many you can eject at once but also how big a minefield you can maintain. For example unskilled you can have a max of 5 mines on the field and whenever you eject a new one the oldest explodes (FF-AoE?). Skilled (maybe even add a new skill minefield maintenance) you can have 30 mines. 30 might be a bit much but I think you see what I'm trying to say. Last there is the idea to give the a weak cloak so you can only see them at a shorter distance.

Reducing the amount of mines you have to increase their dmg. First thing coming to my mind, beside increasing the raw dmg, is dmg which bypasses shields (innate 20%, transphasic 50%). So you can lay them in advance and still have a chance to make decent dmg. No need to "bomb" them. Furthermore you can give them a higher innate CritD, maybe even CritH but I would prefer CritD. Still there is the problem of them being shot down. A weak cloak might help. Also a higher def value or some hitpoints would help so a single random shot won't kill them.
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