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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
09-27-2011, 10:12 PM
I don't know how plausible this would be, but one thing that makes mines kind of annoying to use is that their tracking range is so short- now obviously you guys can't increase it too much ofc.


But a thought I had was this: If someone attacks a mine, all allied mines in the area (say within 3 KM of a mine, leapfrogging) home in on that particular enemy and detonate the moment they're in range.


ie: I zip into a minefield with my escort and fire on a single mine that I'm in range of- but I'm out of range of the other mines. Rather than letting me pick off each and every mine as it comes into range, I aggro ALL OF THEM.







As an alternative, I'd like to see mines work like how they do in non-DS9 shows (ie: photon torpedoes set for proximity detonation). Basically, replace the current mine art with a photon/quantum/whatever torpedo casing, and get rid of mines as a separate item. Then make the relevant mine skills (and maybe an extra ensign level basic "Dispersal Pattern" skill) apply to your next torpedo launch- but fire it as mines.


While this would be more difficult to implement across the board, I think it would be a change that is worth it- since it means that you can deploy mines, but your mine weapons aren't useless outside of whatever limits on mine deployment are implemented.



Under this schema, mines would deal damage similar to the "Torpedo Spread" skill- having a large splash damage detonation and a good chance to crit.


So for instance, I have a tac escort running a quantum torpedo launcher, and the basic 'Dispersal Pattern' skill. I can fire the torpedo normally, but when I hit Dispersal Pattern and then fire, I deploy a quantum mine. When an enemy gets within range, the mine acquires them and attacks them.




Thoughts?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
09-27-2011, 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrus View Post
I don't know how plausible this would be, but one thing that makes mines kind of annoying to use is that their tracking range is so short- now obviously you guys can't increase it too much ofc.


But a thought I had was this: If someone attacks a mine, all allied mines in the area (say within 3 KM of a mine, leapfrogging) home in on that particular enemy and detonate the moment they're in range.


ie: I zip into a minefield with my escort and fire on a single mine that I'm in range of- but I'm out of range of the other mines. Rather than letting me pick off each and every mine as it comes into range, I aggro ALL OF THEM. [...]
I'm not a fan of aggroing(?) the whole field while firing on it but it might work that the whole field (specially in the case of dispersal patterns) targets you as soon as one mine has a lock on you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
09-27-2011, 10:59 PM
here are some weapon ideas that can help with some of the problems with mines and torps

mines: problem.. you hafta have the shields down and they hafta stay down long enough to do some kind of damage (the window is not that long)
torps: problem.. not enough counters to them. -on the flip side- they are too slow

1. new mine type (shield disruption beacon): drop one of these before deploying a mine. it disrupts shield harmonics on anything withing 5 km (subject to change), allowing the mine a favorable window of opportunity to do its job. disruption beacons can interfere with each other and can be used to cancel each other out, which makes for a good counter.
-could come with a mine support package of some sort-

2. new mine type (subspace transponder): when you take down the shields of a target, a transponder attaches (either fires as projectile or beams onto-feedback needed) the hull. the subspace signal allows for better tracking. mines use it to pass through shields. it also makes it easier to track a cloaked or hidden vessel. (has a limited power supply and dies off after -to be determined- seconds)
-certain self healing powers can counter this ability

3. new tractor power (precision tractor beam): when an incoming projectile torpedo or mine gets within 2 km, activate this power and a micro-tractor beam will lock on, divert it away from the ship, and detonate it at a safe distance. timing is key. if you fire the weapon beyond the 2 km range, it will misfire and the recharge cycle will have to complete before another use.

4. new phaser power (precision targeting): when caught in a tractor beam, get within 2 km of the offending vessel. firing this ability allows for phasers to make a precise enough lock to target and disable the tractor beam. this works very similarly to precision tractor beam. if it is fired outside the 2 km window, it misfires and the recharge cycle has to complete before reuse.

5. new mine type (magnetic resonator): fire this at an enemy target and it will react with the hull material of that ship, a projectile torpedo fired at this vessel will gain momentum as it approaches, making targeting more difficult. this will only work for torpedoes from your ship. NOTE: some hull materials will not be susceptible to this effect, a few may actually cause the opposite effect, thus slowing the torpedoes approach, rendering it easier to target.

the key is to make a weapon and provide counters as well. i am personally a strong supporter of weapons that can be balanced by countering themselves or each other and being subject to their own weaknesses. this allows for more thought and care when making decisions as to what to use as opposed to just randomly pushing buttons until something works. i am also a supporter of being able to upgrade and enhance to minimize these effects.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
09-27-2011, 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
Combined with all mines "MES"ing, this could be interesting. You would actually use them as mines and try to mine certain areas. It might not be very relevant in Arena matches, but it could be in Ker'rat and in Capture & Holds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
09-27-2011, 11:24 PM
IF you want an idea to make Mines more effective then try this.

Make them do full damage to shields. Then lets see people plow through a minefields and laugh. Heck, While you are at it. a Mine is basically a Photon torpedo that doesn't have to worry about guidance. Since they have all those space savings lets pack in more antimatter. Double the base damage on the suckers as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
09-28-2011, 01:22 AM
Tricoabalts able to AOE friendlies i can live with. I would still use em. Especially if they create an AOE when shot down and explode. Makes people think about strategy more than just pew pew pew. While none of anything may seem perfect i think its going in the right direction. And if they want to release something broken on holodeck just to get a feel for its consequences to the game as a whole (not alot of people on tribble to get an accurate picture all the time) then thats their decision and ill be more than happy to be a lab monkey in that regard. Doesnt mean im gonna live with it forever tho if it aint workin. This game is effed up and it drives everyone crazy and thats what keeps me around. Maybe im a masochist
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67 A lot to consider
09-28-2011, 04:59 AM
I read through all these ideas and didn't find any that really sounded like it was it. First, we need to reduce the number of mines hanging around the map at any one time. Some ideas in this thread would actually increase the number of mines out (self replicating, one idea was 30 mines with a buff), we can't do that. We want to make mines useful at ranges beyond point blank. That is a tough one.

There is one mine out there that doesn't suffer the problems of spam and needing to bomb: the Breen cluster torpedo. You fire it, it deploys and hits. Spam gone, you didn't have to fly into his shield area, decent damage especially considering they're transphasic, the unwanted stepchild of damage types. I wonder if there isn't a way to incorporate this mechanic into mine use. Perhaps you can only launch one mine in the normal way, up to 4 with dispersal patterns. They have a larger range to attack a ship, say 5km, and move faster to the target. If you want a bigger punch, you have to use a cluster torp. We could make one for every damage type, and it could be superior to normal mine laying since we don't have to worry about the spam. I liked Chris's idea of having them damage shields maybe, or maybe only on the cluster torp. If we incentivize the cluster torp, we take care of the range and the spam problems. It's not what we normally think of as a minefield, but we could keep the dispersal patterns for the place where you want a static defense like in cap and hold.

Some of this is off the top of my head. But I found a lot wrong in the posts I saw, and I didn't want to make a dozen posts responding to each one.

Part of me wonders if we should keep mines at all outside of the cluster torps. I'm all for more choices and variety, but spam is a real problem and strafing runs for mines just makes them bombs like Heretic said. Tric mines aren't really the problem but I can't see leaving them in and getting rid of the rest of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
09-28-2011, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic

It's an interesting idea. Hm.
Mines could operate much as it was suggested that Tricobalts and HYT Plasmas retarget a different enemy if their original assigned one was destroyed, except they would not get an original assigned one. It would just be the closest when laid at range. You could even go so far as to completely kill their defensive use since they're really not useful that way anyway, and make them a completely offensive weapon. So that they would target just as described but if no target is in their range they would self destruct just as torpedos do.

This way mines would be more similar to torpedos, with the benefit of not requiring directed targeting and possibly being stronger, but without the current lasting spam and uselessness. Actually they would work as a spam reducer if fired off in a spread because by being dispersed in different locations they would target different enemies if there were many targetables like fighters in range.

I see no reason that range couldn't be the same 10km as everything else uses. Thus, when in range of enemy, deploy mine(s) which disperse and off they go to enemies as self target acquiring missiles. Kind of a cross between torpedos and kamikaze fighters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
09-28-2011, 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zordar View Post
What about tying AoE explosion damage to target ship size, so smaller ships take less AoE damage than larger ships? Base it on crew size or something. This assumes that the various explosive weapons generate not only the force but the medium by which damage is transferred to targets (as space has no inherent transfer medium). So escorts and BoP's would take less AoE explosion damage than a cruiser or carrier but they'd take the same damage from a direct hit. This also assumes STO's engine is capable of differentiating AoE damage by target variable other than distance.
Z
Got that a little backwards there...
By simply physics a larger mass would absorb the energy better then a smaller mass of equal density.
Now, I think you are meaning that the Escorts natural "maneuverability/avoidance" comes into play? Yeah I agree with that, but lets not base this on ship "size". A battle ship can take a great deal more damage then a Destroyer, and is design to do just that.(example)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
What about reducing the actually amount of mines spawned upon launch, but increasing their trigger-able range and damage? That'll make them A) easier on the server B) less cluttering C) more realistic.

Normal launch is 1 mine, with dispersal patterns increasing the amount of mines launched similar to HYT.
WHile I know many of our PVP community who are serious spam-a-holics when it comes to mines and the like, I feel that reducing the number of mines is not a good idea.

That feels more like we are punishing paul for what peter did... The Torpedo Spread address a huge amount of the "spammer attack" groups.

I feel making the big slow torps (tricobolt, and HY Plasma) have specific directional and AoE that damage all, including friendlies will make them more viable. Far as griefing, there will always be that in any game folks, no way to totally stop that from happening.

I agree that the spammers tossing out so much should have a consequence, to any ship, even friendly ones should avoid minefields for a good reason. I like the thought of that being applied here as well.
I do not agree that the "number" of mines should be slacked off.
Heretic stated already "deployment spread" is bugged on holodeck. A fix is in the works.

The AoE of a Mine is small, the AoE of a Tricobalt is a touch bigger, but not much, and I think it would be good to have that in game, we already have ship explosion that harm all about them, this is no diff. Ship explosions have a fairly large radius. Time we see the big warheads do the same thing, you dont use a tac nuke to kill a tank on the battle field simply because of the damage you can do to your own forces.

Now the question about PUG using this and a player just stating, "hey i use what I want, get over yourself!"
Well, you will find folks won't group with you and won't heal you, and word will spread quickly of your attitude.

I also suggest an alternative. A bridge officer power like Scramble Sensors should affect mines in one or more of the following manners....
  • Mines to track back to the original Ship laying the mines. This will give pause to the use of mines as a spamming tactic. However, it is a rather harsh thing and would in my opinion would make laying mines useless.
  • Mines attack the nearest friendly target. This too is the crux of the "griefer" issue that folks fear and understandably so. Because of the possible abuse, i do not recommend that either.
  • Mines hit with SS, go inert (off line). I like this one best, simply because the mine becomes "confused" and is unable to attack anything because without its sensors to tell it what to do, its sits there like an asteroid doing absolutely nothing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70 A mess by any other name
09-28-2011, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
This is technically feasible, yes. It seems potentially a little non-intuitive for players to me, but I will bring it up internally.


It's an interesting idea. Hm.
The issue at hand is systemic not superficial. You can tweak and bend until the transwarp nacelles come home, the problem is much larger.

Firstly, you need to realize that you can not just paste the abhorrent MMO troika of "Tank, Healer and DPS" onto Star Trek and have something the accurately represents ST Starship combat. If Cryptic is serious about fixing this, I can be reached through the normal channels. I get the feeling that our starships could be Superheroes or Fighters/Mages/Clerics without too much of a change, while I respect the fact that you feel you can launch an MMO quickly, this modality does not and never will work for a military schema likes starship combat.

Everything else I or anyone else will say will not fix the underlying problem, that the starship combat system, while entertaining is *NOT* Star Trek.
Problems include:

- Giving only three ship "types" or for that matter *ANY* type other than pure military designations. Namely "Escort", "Science" and "Cruiser". This goes to the main point of the problematical MMO troika.

- Respawn button. Get rid of it. When you die the game can give your 10-25% of the EC value of your ship and modules. When people actually lose something they will value it more, it will also allow a real economy in STO, which would help in several areas outside of PvP

- Healing. No starship would have the ability to heal more than 5% of its hull, and only that in a long and very lucky engagement (I truly think the figure is much less, but I can agree with 5% as the upper maximum a legendary crew could effect)

- Auto Regen of Hull. As a SFC3 vet I remember people saying how absurd the Borg regen hulls were (they were playable). Now everyone has a regen hull, for no discernible reason, added with the circus of healing powers it makes the Healing issue more acute.

- Arcade speed rather than Tall-Ships speed. While I think combat would be a bit faster in the time of STO, it certainly should not be as fast as it is. For example, the weapons regenerate far too fast, and this leads to weaker a weaker tactical doctrine.

- Always ask yourself (devs) "How would this work in the ST universe?" Please do not add random weapons or change dynamics (the daft idea that torps would not hurt shields, which rewrites the laws of physics) without a careful consideration of the consequences.

- Create a battle point value system for each piece of equipment so that when those items are equipped on a ship (which also has a rating) one would be able to calculate its total combat capability. This would allow one ship to fight against two ships and know that the battle, in theory, is even. This would also, finally, allow for 1x1 combat in STO, something that is impossible now without such a value point system (and the aforementioned trifurcation of ship types)

You at Cryptic have indeed tied a Gordian knot of immense proportions, I wonder if you have the insight to realize that it needs to face the same fate as that knot, the Sword of Alexander, in this case that sword would be the complete and utter revamping of the space combat system.
While your bean counters and MBAs might balk at this challenge I sincerely hope that there is someone in the building that remembers what real starship combat systems in the Star Trek universe feels like. The reality is that if you do build a great starship combat system, old and new players will pour into the game, and they are even likely to buy things at your little Ferengi store online.


Yours in Practical Passionate Plasma,
Star*Dagger
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