Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 11
09-29-2011, 12:06 AM
what needs to be changed is how RCS consoles provide bonus turn rate. the bonus should be a flat +, not a % increase. because of that % increase, they are useless on cruisers that could really use them, and provide meaningful boost to ships that already turn well and don't need them. makes no sense.
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# 12
09-29-2011, 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
what needs to be changed is how RCS consoles provide bonus turn rate. the bonus should be a flat +, not a % increase. because of that % increase, they are useless on cruisers that could really use them, and provide meaningful boost to ships that already turn well and don't need them. makes no sense.
And carriers have it even worse.

There are some very useful engineering consoles, so it's not as if using an RCS comes without an opportunity cost.
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# 13
09-29-2011, 03:08 AM
Quote:
And carriers have it even worse.

There are some very useful engineering consoles, so it's not as if using an RCS comes without an opportunity cost.
Which is also the reason why it's really hard to fit them on Escorts or Science Vessels. If you use Beam Overload, you probably want an EPS Flow Regulator, otherwise you might consider a power booster.
And then you need the +35 % shield capacity console.

So the only ship class that has the slots for it doesn't get much out of them. Suboptimal, I say.

Maybe they should give a percentage boost _or_ a fixed turn rate boost, whichever is higher.

Say, +x % turn rate or + x/10 turn rate? So a +35 turn rate console either boosts your turn rate by 35 %, or by 3.5 points? A net gain if your turn rate is below 10.
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# 14
09-29-2011, 05:08 AM
Not sure about the OR buff, i think a fixed buff is the better choice. Gives slow turners a boost while not making the fast turners much faster to turn.
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# 15
09-29-2011, 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
Not sure about the OR buff, i think a fixed buff is the better choice. Gives slow turners a boost while not making the fast turners much faster to turn.
I think people that are willing to pay the opportunity cost of putting an RCS console on an Escort or Science vessel don't need to be punished by a nerf. I see no balance problems from the RCS console on the Escort/SV side.
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# 16
09-29-2011, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
Love how everyone assumes I don't know how to play a cruiser.
Not everyone. Just me, so far. My assumption is based on your comments. So in those terms if what you get is that I assume that you don't know how to play your ship. Its due to lack of information.

When escorts got the dps nerf every cruiser pilot was happy. The response to the out cry was to deal with it. Now theirs a out cry from the other side. Seams hypocritical to me.

Any way.
Their are other ways to gain turn and speed. Sure you give up other things you would want but that's the nature of the game.

A few of the pieces of the breen set (I froget which) combined with a pice from the aegis set, APO, RCS console, an increase in engine power. You can also buy an engine that buffs turn, speed , or what ever you need. Throw a engin battery, deturium sample, evasive, even the occasional ramming speed. You can turn on a dime. I've seen it.
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# 17
09-29-2011, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurga
Not everyone. Just me, so far. My assumption is based on your comments. So in those terms if what you get is that I assume that you don't know how to play your ship. Its due to lack of information.

When escorts got the dps nerf every cruiser pilot was happy. The response to the out cry was to deal with it. Now theirs a out cry from the other side. Seams hypocritical to me.

Any way.
Their are other ways to gain turn and speed. Sure you give up other things you would want but that's the nature of the game.

A few of the pieces of the breen set (I froget which) combined with a pice from the aegis set, APO, RCS console, an increase in engine power. You can also buy an engine that buffs turn, speed , or what ever you need. Throw a engin battery, deturium sample, evasive, even the occasional ramming speed. You can turn on a dime. I've seen it.
That's all nice, but when your base turn rate is 5 or 6, percentage buffs don't help a whole lot.

On the cruiser I play most often, I regularly run at about 70 engine power, and I frequently use Aux2Dampeners, APO, and EPtE. I know how to make a cruiser fast.

But the turn buffs are really lacking because they are all percentage based.

I don't want to see escorts nerfed, I play a couple of those too. I don't want cruisers to have base improvements to their speed or maneuverability either. But when a cruiser skipper loads up with BOffs powers and consoles to improve their maneuverability, there ought to be a significant improvement.

A percentage based buff can't help a ship that has exceedingly low maneuverability, because the percentage increase will be exceedingly low.

A carrier with a +35% RCS console goes from 5 to 6.75 turning; a Defiant-R would go from 17 to 23.95 turning. The carrier's turn rating would go up by 1.75 while the Defiant-R's goes up by almost 7.

I'd actually be fine with RCS consoles still giving a percentage boost if the percent turned out to be higher than the flat boost. The suggestion about just dividing the percent boost on every console by 10 and giving that as a flat increase sound fair, since a carrier or cruiser would then get +3.5 out of that +35% console, which is not bad, but still doesn't put them in a range where they could compete with escort maneuverability.

Aux to Dampeners and Attack Patter Omega are pretty high maneuver buffs already (+133%), but even if you follow the rule of 10 for those, they don't end up being better under most circumstances. An Excelsior-R with 1 RCS console already has a turn rate of 10.8, so the most maneuverable cruisers would actually lose a little following the rule of 10. But ships like the Vo'quv and the Galaxy-R would benefit a lot from it.

Bear in mind that A2D replaces RSP, and APO uses the only LTC tactical slot available on an Excelsior. Both powers come at a steep opportunity cost.





It probably wouldn't be overpowered to set LRSV-R maneuverability as the base either (12). It's in the middle of the pack as face as science vessels go, and much less maneuverable than Escorts. Then you'd be looking at top end RCS consoles adding 4.2, and APO and A2D adding 16 (instead of 3.5 and 13.3). Any way that you worked it, there would be less benefit to stacking multiple buffs (which the Excelsior-R is best at due to it's BOff configuration and consoles), but slower ships would still gain significant benefit.

The main point of this suggestion would be to give the true turtles in the game a way to improve their maneuverability a bit. Right now I generally don't bother with RCS consoles on a cruiser, because they add so little, especially on the ships that need them most like the Galaxy-R.
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# 18
09-29-2011, 01:00 PM
Lets not froget the 75% rule of diminishing returns that cryptic has put in place.
What I'm getting at is cryptic is trying to prevent one class gaining enough bonuses to make another class unusable or undesirable.

I remember a game where you could buy a speed boost when this came out every one jumped the one class built for speed for the middle class and just buffed their speed.

I understand you want to turn faster. I get that. I just ask that you take in overall game make up. Cruisers are aspised to be big and consequently slow. You can use weapons that will cover 360 so turning isn't so much a problem.

Although a change from percentage value to a flat boost that will work the same for every one does make since. I personally don't want this to become the kind of game where you can pick a class and all the bonuses of anther without any of the weaknesses.

Just my opinion.
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# 19
09-29-2011, 01:10 PM
Wut? Buff Cruisers? Isnt this game called Cruiser and Science Online already?
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# 20
09-29-2011, 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
Love how everyone assumes I don't know how to play a cruiser.
HAX!

In all IMHO any buffs for cruisers could be dangerous
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