Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
10-07-2011, 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakaishin
By STO standards (while Akira is a sexy ship), it is dated and substandard in technology to the Defiant or other escorts already existing. Defiant stands as T4 base, so it makes sense that with some modifications, a T5 can be produced.

Akira is T3. To suddenly jump that to T5 would be a bit absurd.
That logic doesn't really hold water when you take into account the following ships:

D'kyr class - 2100's - T5
Excelsior class - 2200's - T3, T5
Nebula class - 2350's - T3, T5
Galaxy class - 2350's - T4, T5
Defiant class - 2360's - T4, T5
Intrepid class - 2360's - T4, T5


Now, compare all of that to the Akira:
Akira class - 2370's - T3

Yes, that's right, the Akira is NEWER than the Defiant. It's also a cruiser, not an escort. But nevermind the Defiant. What bout the Nebula, 20 years older, that's T5. What about the Excelsior, 100 years older, that's T5. What about the D'kyr, 200 years older, that's T5.


Oh... and here's the best one. Remember the T1 B'rel? The starter ship for the Klingons? They have a T5 version of that. And it's from the 2200's.

So don't give us that "it's too old" crap. Don't give us that "it's too much of a jump" crap. Because Cryptic's already made older ships at T5, and jumped up higher, and from the same tier the Akira's in. Just face it, the Akira is not where it deserves to be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
10-07-2011, 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela
That logic doesn't really hold water when you take into account the following ships:

D'kyr class - 2100's - T5
Excelsior class - 2200's - T3, T5
Nebula class - 2350's - T3, T5
Galaxy class - 2350's - T4, T5
Defiant class - 2360's - T4, T5
Intrepid class - 2360's - T4, T5
D'kyr - As I've said before, it would only be logical to update an existing design as long as it were able to easily support new technology, rather than design a whole new spaceframe from scratch. Just because it looks like a 2100's era D'kyr on the outside, doesn't mean the guts are the same.

Nebula & Galaxy - Two of the biggest, most advanced, and most resource intensive ship designs ever fielded by Starfleet. They aren't the kind of thing you just toss on the scrapheap when something new comes along, they're going to be trying to pay down their investment on those big boys for awhile yet, so upgrading them to new tech as it comes out is again only sensible.

Defiant, Intrepid, & Excelsior - these are a bit questionable at T5, but then again the Excelsior, first commissioned in 2284, was still the primary workhorse and ship of the line for starfleet in 2375, almost 100 years later. And the Miranda which first set out for the stars probably some time around 2260 was still the go-to light frigate of the Dominion war. Some ships just accept new tech better than others, I guess.


Quote:
Now, compare all of that to the Akira:
Akira class - 2370's - T3

Yes, that's right, the Akira is NEWER than the Defiant. It's also a cruiser, not an escort. But nevermind the Defiant. What bout the Nebula, 20 years older, that's T5. What about the Excelsior, 100 years older, that's T5. What about the D'kyr, 200 years older, that's T5.
Nope, according to my sources the Akira was first commissioned in 2365, the Defiant came in service in 2370, after production began in 2366.


Quote:
Oh... and here's the best one. Remember the T1 B'rel? The starter ship for the Klingons? They have a T5 version of that. And it's from the 2200's.
That one's... questionable, but then it's also in the nebulous "quasi canon" realm of the Galaxy X & the cloakable Defiants. In theory the Galaxy X was a figment of Q's (arguably) overactive imagination, and there was only ever 1 Defiant with a cloaking device by special agreement with the Romulans and largely under Romulan supervision. Likewise there was only ever 1 fire-while-cloak B'rel, Chang's ship from Undiscovered Country. The technology for how to do that seems to have died with Chang when Sulu got trigger happy. (you never thought it might be beneficial to try and capture such and advanced weapon of war guys? Especially when it looks like you're about to become much friendlier with it's owners. Geeze)

Quote:
So don't give us that "it's too old" crap. Don't give us that "it's too much of a jump" crap. Because Cryptic's already made older ships at T5, and jumped up higher, and from the same tier the Akira's in. Just face it, the Akira is not where it deserves to be.
I don't know that I agree, but I don't know that I disagree. The whole tier system felt a little artificial to me right from the start. Obviously far to late to change it now, but trying to rank ships in 3 fairly limited categories always seemed silly to me. Is an Akira better or worse than a Defiant? It's different, with a different role to play. From what I've seen on screen I'd say the Defiant probably had more firepower, but the Akira is probably tougher.

In fact, it occurs to me that the best place to put the Akira probably wouldn't have been in the escort category at all. I think shuffling the Sovereign into the T5 cruiser/science role (the traditional position of the Enterprise) and making the Akira the T5 cruiser/tactical vessel would probably have done the most justice to the design.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
10-08-2011, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
D'kyr - As I've said before, it would only be logical to update an existing design as long as it were able to easily support new technology, rather than design a whole new spaceframe from scratch. Just because it looks like a 2100's era D'kyr on the outside, doesn't mean the guts are the same.
That applies to any ship...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
Nebula & Galaxy - Two of the biggest, most advanced, and most resource intensive ship designs ever fielded by Starfleet. They aren't the kind of thing you just toss on the scrapheap when something new comes along, they're going to be trying to pay down their investment on those big boys for awhile yet, so upgrading them to new tech as it comes out is again only sensible.

Defiant, Intrepid, & Excelsior - these are a bit questionable at T5, but then again the Excelsior, first commissioned in 2284, was still the primary workhorse and ship of the line for starfleet in 2375, almost 100 years later. And the Miranda which first set out for the stars probably some time around 2260 was still the go-to light frigate of the Dominion war. Some ships just accept new tech better than others, I guess.
I see no reason why the Akira wouldn't fit in with the rest of these.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
Nope, according to my sources the Akira was first commissioned in 2365, the Defiant came in service in 2370, after production began in 2366.
You're sources aren't canon. The Akira class didn't appear on-screen until the Dominion War, and the Defiant made it on screen a couple seasons prior. Therefore canonically the Defiant is older.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
That one's... questionable, but then it's also in the nebulous "quasi canon" realm of the Galaxy X & the cloakable Defiants. In theory the Galaxy X was a figment of Q's (arguably) overactive imagination, and there was only ever 1 Defiant with a cloaking device by special agreement with the Romulans and largely under Romulan supervision. Likewise there was only ever 1 fire-while-cloak B'rel, Chang's ship from Undiscovered Country. The technology for how to do that seems to have died with Chang when Sulu got trigger happy. (you never thought it might be beneficial to try and capture such and advanced weapon of war guys? Especially when it looks like you're about to become much friendlier with it's owners. Geeze)
Technically speaking, the B'rel has been upgraded, so the design of the 24th century is not the same ship as what we saw in the movies. There's no reason they couldn't continue upgrading the B'rel, or the Akira.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Feor View Post
I don't know that I agree, but I don't know that I disagree. The whole tier system felt a little artificial to me right from the start. Obviously far to late to change it now, but trying to rank ships in 3 fairly limited categories always seemed silly to me. Is an Akira better or worse than a Defiant? It's different, with a different role to play. From what I've seen on screen I'd say the Defiant probably had more firepower, but the Akira is probably tougher.

In fact, it occurs to me that the best place to put the Akira probably wouldn't have been in the escort category at all. I think shuffling the Sovereign into the T5 cruiser/science role (the traditional position of the Enterprise) and making the Akira the T5 cruiser/tactical vessel would probably have done the most justice to the design.
I agree with you that the Akira isn't an escort. It's a cruiser, and always has been. That's the whole problem with the "class" system that Cryptic's using. Ships don't fit into the Escort / Science roles, with exception to specialized ships like the Defiant, Nova, or Oberth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
10-08-2011, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilladog View Post
The door look big enough to me. And with 3 forward facing doors it could launch 3 fighters at a time followed by more in rapid sucession. There you go- attribute of 3 escort fighters.
The Peregrine "fighter" is as long and wide as a Boeing 707 (it has a cockpit big enough two people the are over 190cm tall can sit comfortably next to each other) those "doors" are not big enough for that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
10-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakaishin
By STO standards (while Akira is a sexy ship), it is dated and substandard in technology to the Defiant or other escorts already existing. Defiant stands as T4 base, so it makes sense that with some modifications, a T5 can be produced.

Akira is T3. To suddenly jump that to T5 would be a bit absurd.
STO pretty much arbitrarily squeezed ships into tiers without much regard whether it makes sense where they are or not.
In case of the Akira they not only got the tier wrong, but also the class.
She's a ship the size of the Excelsior (possibly a bit heavier) and a whole lot more advanced.

My guess is the reason to put the Galaxy, the Intrepid and the Defiant into the same tier was actually "political" so no fan from any of the three "modern" era shows can scream and bite and kick that his/her preferred show was devalued in some way.
Since they had to put something below her...they picked the Akira out of her class and stuffed her into that hole.

In addition I don't seen anything in her description anywhere indicating she was in any way outdated (not that 5 years matter anyway) and let's not forget they built the Defiant prototype and then shelved it before Sisko went to his post at DS9, meaning the ship predates Season 1 of DS9.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
10-08-2011, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The Peregrine "fighter" is as long and wide as a Boeing 707 (it has a cockpit big enough two people the are over 190cm tall can sit comfortably next to each other) those "doors" are not big enough for that.
I work at the Boeing factory and seriously doubt a fighter would be THAT big. Besides, a Peregrine isn't the only fighter out there. A fighter doesn't have to bigger than a shuttle. The scorpions are smaller than shuttles, in fact.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
10-08-2011, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilladog View Post
I work at the Boeing factory and seriously doubt a fighter would be THAT big. Besides, a Peregrine isn't the only fighter out there. A fighter doesn't have to bigger than a shuttle. The scorpions are smaller than shuttles, in fact.
The Peregrine has an official length of about 30 meters and since it's diamond-shaped it's also 30 meters wide.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...Peregrine1.jpg

http://www.reocities.com/stg63541/peregrine.jpg

and those are the fighters the Federation employs.
So when you say "fighters", those would be the ones.
The size is also not that unrealistic since the Runabout is already around 25 meters long, is fully warp-capable and can operate independently for two weeks.
Take those capabilites and add weapons and bigger impulse engines for higher agility to the frame and you end up where the Peregrine is.

In addition in case of the Scorpoins I'd like to add that they were never called "fighters" on-screen.
Data referred to them as flyers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
10-08-2011, 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela
That logic doesn't really hold water when you take into account the following ships:

D'kyr class - 2100's - T5
Excelsior class - 2200's - T3, T5
Nebula class - 2350's - T3, T5
Galaxy class - 2350's - T4, T5
Defiant class - 2360's - T4, T5
Intrepid class - 2360's - T4, T5


Now, compare all of that to the Akira:
Akira class - 2370's - T3

I'd be interested to read where you got your dates from, I'm pretty sure the Akira is actually a few yrs older then the Intrepid, else we would have seen Intrepids during the Dominion War. I'd almost go out on a limb and say the intrepid was commission after the Dominion War. If we are following your rule of "canonically" being the timeline for the ships, then your timeline is flawed sir.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
10-08-2011, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFO-OptimusPrime View Post
I'd be interested to read where you got your dates from, I'm pretty sure the Akira is actually a few yrs older then the Intrepid, else we would have seen Intrepids during the Dominion War. I'd almost go out on a limb and say the intrepid was commission after the Dominion War. If we are following your rule of "canonically" being the timeline for the ships, then your timeline is flawed sir.
It's complete nonsense that the Intrepid was commissioned after the Dominion War.
Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant on 48315.6 which lies between DS9 Season 3 Episode 6 (48301.1 ) and Episode 7(48388.8 ).
In addition we did see an Intrepid on DS9 during the Dominion War.
It was used to transport Admiral Ross and Doctor Bashir to Romulus in Season 7 ("Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges") simply meaning they were not used as frontline ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
10-08-2011, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilladog View Post
I work at the Boeing factory and seriously doubt a fighter would be THAT big. Besides, a Peregrine isn't the only fighter out there. A fighter doesn't have to bigger than a shuttle. The scorpions are smaller than shuttles, in fact.
any fighter smaller then that would be useless. it wouldn't be able to carry weapons large enough to do any harm to an actual starship, and it wouldn't be able to survive any hit from one ether, the precision targeting of star trek weapons would mean almost no shots at one would miss.
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