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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-08-2011, 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
...First I never said that ships should be upgraded to be on par with the biggest and baddest. But, yes they should be able to be upgraded significantly. Remeber the episode of "Paradise Lost" and the heavily upgraded Lakota. This Excelsior went toe to toe with a Defiant and gave as good as she got. Even the Chief was suprised at her firepower.
the biggest thing people don't take from this fight is perspective. we are talking about a corvette with the warp core of a destroyer and the endurance and firepower of a light cruiser vs an 80 year old former capital ship/ former heavy cruiser/ currently light cruiser. even upgraded as far as star fleet can possibly upgrade it, its still not enough to beat a premiere corvette. if the defiant faced off against an intrepid, or any other modern light cruiser it would have lost badly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
And anyway the biggest and badest does not always equal the best. Take the Prometheus, absolutely one of the best Starfleet has to offer but certainly not the biggest.
i dont get how people come to this conclusion. its very fast, and its very advanced, but its not much larger then an intrepid class, has shrimpy phaser arrays, no observed cannon mounts, and minimal usable interior volume because its saddled with 3 ships worth of separate systems so each section can be fully autonomous. it would be great against small ships like birds of prey and jem hadar fighters, but its not much of a threat to anything larger then it is. all it did in that episode is knock a nebula class out of warp that was red lining its engines to catch up with it, and finish off a war bird that 2 defiants and an akira already shot quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
We have to get away from this mindest of big always equals the very best...As in Startrek that is just not always the case. Let alone even in Star Trek a Captain such as Charlie Reynolds did not have the luxury or option to have the biggest and baddest. The Centuar anyone! The Federation was at war and they were not going to just sit ships in dock just because they were not Galaxy or Nebula or Akira classes. And even more so you saw these same lower tier ships fighting along side the "big boys." This is Trek canon. They may not have the fire power or durability but at least we should be able to have the option. at current we do not...

Also in Trek there are no ship classes-types that are inherently made inferior to another.

i dont under stand why everyone wants all the ships to be equal, is it because their favorite ship isn't the best? so if everything is just as powerful as everything else then its ok?

they build ships other then galaxys and nebulas because there is a wide variety of roles that need filling. it parallels navys of today. bigger ships can mount bigger guns then small ships can and their size gives them a naturally higher endurance. whats not to get? doesn't mean smaller ships are useless, they are very important parts of the fleet and serve their roles. star trek fans always seem to assume then newest ship has got to be the most powerful. get past the new hotness wow factor and take a good look at the sum of its parts and if you have a good understanding of trek weapons and technology you can extrapolate how things truly rank, like i did.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12 Very Much do get it
10-08-2011, 10:06 PM
While I very much read your intial post and agree the system needs redone. I respectfully disagree as the way you describe it as being fixed.

Never said all ships should be equal. Read my post again, never said such a thing. Also you made my point for me. Of course ships can be small but extremely powerful. There is no doubt that the Defiant was small but was extremely powerful for her size. Firepower that easily matched ships larger than her. Also, remember the old balltecruisers of WWI these ships were just as powerful as battleships but smaller, lighter, and faster. They could dish out punishment with the best the world had to offer. But, they had a serious problem they could not take much becuase of the compromises made for speed and firepower. Lack of amor being the biggest. Torpedo boats and destoyers of WWII are also another example. Pretty much death traps but able to hit ships far greater in size and sink them do to the type of weaponry aboard. Torpedoes mainly.

And of course Star Fleet has different ships for different roles. So, why just becuase a ship is meant for a particular role does it mean it must neatly fit into a given category and not be able to move out. Both the Nebula and Nova are great examples. The Nova intialy being meant as a warship but later redesigned as a Science vessel. But even the canon records state that this ship is able to receive a suprising amount of punishement for a ship of its size. And while not a front line ship it is able to hold its own in battle even against larger ships. Even the Voyger episode proved that this supposedly small quite feable ship is more than capable. Would the Nova succumb to the larger ship with larger firepower quite reasonable yes. But not before giving it a heck of a fight. This also has been proven repeatly on the screen.


What about the Breen ships. The captial ships were very large compared to the Defiant. But without the energy dampening weapon they were paper tigers.

And yes I do have a favorite ship. Three actually; Nebula, Saber and Akira. Do I think these ships should be able to stand toe to toe with a Sovereign? Of course not. But can they give it a bloody nose? I believe so.

As for the new hotness, sorry I have not been a fan of a single new ship that Cryptic has put out with exeption of the new Klingon Vor' Kang class. It is just a visually cool ship. And as far as Trek weonry, please do not insult my inteligence as I have not attacked yours. I as I am sure you also have seen all the Trek episodes at least three times over.

And just a side note never once did I see a Galaxy class firing polaron weapons as I do in this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-09-2011, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
Of course ships can be small but extremely powerful. There is no doubt that the Defiant was small but was extremely powerful for her size.Firepower that easily matched ships larger than her.
true up to a point, she was able to deal more damage then is typical for a ship of her size. bare in mind the only ships she easily took out were here size or smaller, she was not able to mow down larger ships and never did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
Also, remember the old balltecruisers of WWI these ships were just as powerful as battleships but smaller, lighter, and faster. They could dish out punishment with the best the world had to offer. But, they had a serious problem they could not take much becuase of the compromises made for speed and firepower. Lack of amor being the biggest. Torpedo boats and destoyers of WWII are also another example. Pretty much death traps but able to hit ships far greater in size and sink them do to the type of weaponry aboard. Torpedoes mainly.
ah yes the great naval ships of old, excellent for making points. the ambassador is like a WW1 battleship, large but with relatively small guns. the battle cruisers are good representations of the newer ships that are smaller then the ambassador but have arrays the same size or larger. then came along the dreadnought, an all big gun battleship. that's the equivalent to the galaxy and nebula class, with thier enormous phaser arrays that no other ship, canon or otherwise, has yet to match or exceed. not even these cryptic designs like the star cruisers and the new odyssey. its unfortunate that the designer did not know that the longer an array is the more powerful its shots will be. second to size, that's the biggest indicator of how dangerous a ship is btw. in my proposal with the bonuses to destroyers and the weaknesses of capital ships i did make it crystal clear that destroyers will have an advantage against them, and there is historical precedent for that type of thing. luckily that works out well for gameplay too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
And of course Star Fleet has different ships for different roles. So, why just becuase a ship is meant for a particular role does it mean it must neatly fit into a given category and not be able to move out. Both the Nebula and Nova are great examples. The Nova intialy being meant as a warship but later redesigned as a Science vessel. But even the canon records state that this ship is able to receive a suprising amount of punishement for a ship of its size. And while not a front line ship it is able to hold its own in battle even against larger ships. Even the Voyger episode proved that this supposedly small quite feable ship is more than capable. Would the Nova succumb to the larger ship with larger firepower quite reasonable yes. But not before giving it a heck of a fight. This also has been proven repeatly on the screen.
i invision a nova refit to tier 3, like you can with my system, would basically be that defient pathfinder design, and be at the level of the basic tier 3 defiant on my list. im sure any ship can give any ship a hard time given any sort of circumstances, but the hard numbers are what they are, some ships are more powerful then others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
And yes I do have a favorite ship. Three actually; Nebula, Saber and Akira. Do I think these ships should be able to stand toe to toe with a Sovereign? Of course not. But can they give it a bloody nose? I believe so.

As for the new hotness, sorry I have not been a fan of a single new ship that Cryptic has put out with exeption of the new Klingon Vor' Kang class. It is just a visually cool ship. And as far as Trek weonry, please do not insult my inteligence as I have not attacked yours. I as I am sure you also have seen all the Trek episodes at least three times over.
im not talking about any cryptic design, im talking about ships from the show. you think the sovereign is the top federation ship? that's what i mean about new hotness, the sovereign, the prometheus, and the defiant. the majority of fans are wowed by them when they are introduced and think those are the top 3 ships in starfleet. but a real analysis shows quite the opposite.

the sovereign is an impressive heavy cruiser, enough so that it is the only non capital ship i have in tier 5, but its out of its weight class compared to the galaxy. the galaxy's volume is 5,820,983 m, the sovereign's is only 2,429,193 m. with all that extra size comes arrays twice the size the sovereign has, meaning it can fire shots twice as powerful as the sovereign can. even the largest arrays on most other ships are peashooters compared to that, its in a league of its own.

the galaxy's single fore and aft launcher are enormous pieces of engineering, and can burst fire at least 7 and according to some sources 26 torpedoes before needing to completely reload. only a ship that size could have a launcher that large and complex. the sovereign has a burst 4 quantum launcher, a dual burst 2 launcher, and a small single shot launchers up front and aft it has a burst 3 and 2 small single shot launcher. its smaller size leaves no room for a single huge launcher, that's why it has so many minor launcher.

and then there is endurance, lets say the galaxy's volume grants it 1 unit of endurance per m, and the sovereign's volume grants it 2 units of endurance per m. the score then is 5,820,983 for the galaxy, and 4,858,386 for the sovereign. even if the sovereign is twice as tough per m, it still pales to the galaxys score. the defiant's volume is 61,724 m, lets give it 10 units of endurance per m. just stick a 0 to the end of its volume number and thats all it has.

thats a look at the scale of things, these are those hard numbers, and thats why i have things tier'd the way they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
And just a side note never once did I see a Galaxy class firing polaron weapons as I do in this game.
i think its stupid too, but people want choice for the sake of having choice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
10-09-2011, 03:03 AM
First of all, I'd love to see the tier system abolished. Concerning the ship classes, I completely agree with the proposal to take size into account for classification. The most ridiculous thing about this game is to see the Prometheus as a gunship fighting like the Defiant.

What I don't get in this discussion is the focus of many people on firepower and size. I understand your agruments from a PvP view, but not regarding canon. We have seen the Enterprise-D being taken out with a couple of blows, while Voyager successfully took on much stronger enemies. I don't recall any episode, where pure firepower decided a combat situation while the mere fact of Excelsior- and Miranda-class starships being present in the Dominion War proves that they must've been useful for something.

The point I wan't to make is, the whole thing Star Trek is about is intelligence, creativity and science. Unfortunately the current ship, boff and skill design don't reflect that correctly. Although the Intrepid class is in some points very close, there's no explanation, why the Galaxy class - an exploration cruiser - isn't scientific at all. So I'd prefer to have the ships abilities, strength and role being more dependent on the captain and its crew.

Picard solves problems different to Ben Sisko, Janeway other than Chakotay. So where's the point in giving each ship the same boff-layout instead of letting the captain decide? What if the science officer aboard the Enterprise would have been Harry Kim instead of Data? Data's skills are far more interdisciplinary than Kim's, influencing the capabilities of the Enterprise and the options for Picard. Or if Kirk had Riker as XO instead of Spock - it's the crew that decides the outcome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-09-2011, 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGun View Post
First of all, I'd love to see the tier system abolished. Concerning the ship classes, I completely agree with the proposal to take size into account for classification. The most ridiculous thing about this game is to see the Prometheus as a gunship fighting like the Defiant.

What I don't get in this discussion is the focus of many people on firepower and size. I understand your agruments from a PvP view, but not regarding canon. We have seen the Enterprise-D being taken out with a couple of blows, while Voyager successfully took on much stronger enemies. I don't recall any episode, where pure firepower decided a combat situation while the mere fact of Excelsior- and Miranda-class starships being present in the Dominion War proves that they must've been useful for something.
that's the problem i run into wile trying to argue my ranking of things, all throughout TNG the vaunted galaxy class enterprise D was made a fool of over and over. almost every encounter when it was overpowered should have gone the opposite way based on the raw stats. but no body let the writers in on the fact that this new enterprise is the largest, most powerful ship in explored space, and that they shouldn't write the damn thing as the underdog in ever episode! aww, but the good guys being the underdog is easier to write!

basically the galaxy class being a pushover is the product of plot railroading, and in a situation were you try to apply stats and balance to a game environment, those situations should be disregarded. we know how big the ship is, we know its armaments, we know how phasers work and we know that the longer the array is the more powerful the shots can be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by McGun View Post
The point I wan't to make is, the whole thing Star Trek is about is intelligence, creativity and science. Unfortunately the current ship, boff and skill design don't reflect that correctly. Although the Intrepid class is in some points very close, there's no explanation, why the Galaxy class - an exploration cruiser - isn't scientific at all. So I'd prefer to have the ships abilities, strength and role being more dependent on the captain and its crew.

Picard solves problems different to Ben Sisko, Janeway other than Chakotay. So where's the point in giving each ship the same boff-layout instead of letting the captain decide? What if the science officer aboard the Enterprise would have been Harry Kim instead of Data? Data's skills are far more interdisciplinary than Kim's, influencing the capabilities of the Enterprise and the options for Picard. Or if Kirk had Riker as XO instead of Spock - it's the crew that decides the outcome.
that would be kind of cool is the non white boff gave more pasive bonuses, besides just the efficient ones, kind of like the doff system does. the station powers in game don't really have anything to do with the crew manning them though, they are a representation of each ships capabilities in the form of abilities at various strength levels.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16 Volume is Jst not Realistic
10-09-2011, 08:10 AM
Sorry but volume is just not realistic. Even in Star Trek itself there are ships from all the episodes that technologically were more advanced that Enterprise and Voyager and the Defiant. In the begining the Federation had no defense against the Jem'Hedar. Three very small Jem'Hedar attack ship crippled the Odessy...It was always about technology. And if that was the case what about the Breen? You are making comparisons and drawing lines based on sizes. That just is not Trek. And the phaser arrays are there for coverage. The type of array such as Type IX or X determines the strength of the fire power. This is also clearly stated in the tech manuals and ship specs...

And just because we did not see the Defiant take down a much larger ship does not mean she could not have. My point was yes she would have given them a bloody nose.

Also I agree with the above post that ships just cannot be relegated to the dust bin. Those ships obviously were useful for something. Again remember when Charlie Reynolds attacked the captured Dominion vessel in a Centaur class vessel? How do you explain the damage that was dished out by the Centaur? Also, the Boff system as it is currently does not reflect Trek. I understand that this is an MMO. But, I believe Cryptic should have went outside the box with this one because Trek is so much more than just meet the new people, ok now shoot them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-09-2011, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
Sorry but volume is just not realistic. Even in Star Trek itself there are ships from all the episodes that technologically were more advanced that Enterprise and Voyager and the Defiant. In the begining the Federation had no defense against the Jem'Hedar. Three very small Jem'Hedar attack ship crippled the Odessy...It was always about technology. And if that was the case what about the Breen? You are making comparisons and drawing lines based on sizes. That just is not Trek. And the phaser arrays are there for coverage. The type of array such as Type IX or X determines the strength of the fire power. This is also clearly stated in the tech manuals and ship specs...
at first the dominion's polaron weapons effortlessly penetrated starfleet shields. still, there was more 'the galaxy class always' loses plot railroading going on, not being able to squash them like bugs regardless is silly. every other time you see the galaxy class in ds9 it was steam rolling. but technology did save the day, they figured out how to defend against dominion weapons and the federation and dominion ships became more evenly matched. with breen ships we don't really have any frame of reference on how advanced or powerful they are, other then that energy drain trick.

phaser arrays aren't long for just coverage, several small banks could do the same job then and be more space efficient. according to tech manuals the emitters under the outer array all hold their own 'charge' as it were, and they all discharge in unison to the point on the arrays that actually fires. the more emitters that take part of this charging, the more powerful the shots are. thus, the longer the array, the more powerful shots it can fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
And just because we did not see the Defiant take down a much larger ship does not mean she could not have. My point was yes she would have given them a bloody nose.
the defiant is nearly outmatched by a fully uprated excelsior. that battle fairly accurately showed us its limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htatc View Post
Also I agree with the above post that ships just cannot be relegated to the dust bin. Those ships obviously were useful for something. Again remember when Charlie Reynolds attacked the captured Dominion vessel in a Centaur class vessel? How do you explain the damage that was dished out by the Centaur? Also, the Boff system as it is currently does not reflect Trek. I understand that this is an MMO. But, I believe Cryptic should have went outside the box with this one because Trek is so much more than just meet the new people, ok now shoot them.
are you talking about me ditching all the relics but the excelsior? sure they were still useful in the 2370s, but that was 35 years ago from the in game time period. and again with the centaur, its a frigate that's at least a match 1 on 1 with a jem hadar fighter. if a defiant can take 1 on in 1 pass, im sure a centaur could beat one in a few passes, and vice versa.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-11-2011, 11:32 PM
ok heres a first draft on some station setups and some basic stats, very long post is very long. remeber, there are no escorts, science ships and cruisers. instead there are destroyers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and capital ships. their strengths and weaknesses are listed in the OP, to give you an idea oh how these ships facing each other might play out. every ship can be refit twice, so a tier 1 ship can be upgraded to tier 3, etc... each tier has a certain number of consoles and station powers, that and their hitpoints are what increases at rank up.

tier 1 station # : 4
tier 1 consoles # : 4

tier 2 station # : 6
tier 2 consoles # : 5

tier 3 station # : 8
tier 3 consoles # : 6

tier 4 station # : 10
tier 4 consoles # : 8

tier 5 station # : 12
tier 5 consoles # : 10


tier 1 saber
11000 hp
15 turn rate
stations- ens tac, ens tac, ens eng, ens sci
consoles- 1eng, 1sci, 2 tac
wep- 2/1
☑cannons

tier 1 nova
10000 hp
16 turn rate
stations- ens tac, ens eng, ens sci, ens sci
consoles- 1eng, 2sci, 1tac
wep-2/1
☐cannons

tier 1 excelsior
12000 hp
11 turn rate
stations-ens tac, ens eng, ens eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 1 tac
wep-2/2
☐cannons


tier 2 saber
16000 hp
15 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt tac, ens eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 2 tac
wep- 3/1
☑cannons

tier 2 nova
15000 hp
16 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens eng, lt sci, ens sci
consoles- 1eng, 2sci, 2tac
wep-2/2
☐cannons

tier 2 norway
17000 hp
14 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens tac, lt eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 2 tac
wep- 3/1
☑cannons

tier 2 excelsior
19000 hp
11 turn rate
stations-ens tac, ens tac, lt eng, ens eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 2tac
wep-3/2
☐cannons

tier 2 steamrunner
20000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 2tac
wep-3/2
☐cannons

tier 2 olympic
18000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- ens tac, ens eng, lt sci, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 2sci, 1tac
wep-2/2
☐cannons


tier 3 saber
21000 hp
15 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, lt tac, lt eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 3tac
wep- 4/1
☑cannons

tier 3 nova
19000 hp
16 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, ens tac lt eng, lt sci,
consoles- 1eng, 2sci, 3tac
wep-3/2
☑cannons

tier 3 norway
22000 hp
14 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens tac, ltc eng, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 3tac
wep- 3/2
☑cannons

tier 3 defiant
22000 hp
17 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, lt tac, ens tac ens eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 3tac
wep- 4/1
☑cannons

tier 3 excelsior
25000 hp
11 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ltc eng, lt sci, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 2sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 3 steamrunner
26000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens tac, ltc eng, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 1sci, 3tac
wep-4/2
☐cannons

tier 3 olympic
24000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- ens tac, lt eng, ltc sci, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 3sci, 1tac
wep-3/2
☐cannons

tier 3 intrepid
27000 hp
13 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt eng, ltc sci, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 2sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 3 ambassador
30000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ltc eng, ens eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 1sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 3 stargazer
29000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ltc eng, lt sci, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 2sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons


tier 4 norway
25000 hp
14 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt tac, com eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 2sci, 3tac
wep- 4/2
☑cannons

tier 4 defiant
26000 hp
17 turn rate
stations- com tac, lt tac, ens tac ens eng, ens eng, ens sci
consoles- 2eng, 2sci, 4tac
wep- 4/1
☑cannons

tier 4 hermes
27000 hp
14 turn rate
stations- com tac, ens tac, lt eng, ens eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 2sci, 3tac
wep- 4/2
☑cannons

tier 4 steamrunner
29000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt tac, com eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 2sci, 3tac
wep-4/2
☐cannons

tier 4 olympic
28000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- ens tac, lt eng, com sci, lt sci, ens sci
consoles- 3eng, 4sci, 1tac
wep-3/2
☐cannons

tier 4 intrepid
30000 hp
13 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens tac, lt eng, ens eng, com sci
consoles- 3eng, 3sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 4 prometheus
31000 hp
15 turn rate
stations- com tac, lt eng, lt sci, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/2
☑cannons

tier 4 ambassador
33000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- lt tac, com eng, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 2sci, 2tac
wep-4/3
☐cannons

tier 4 stargazer
32000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- lt tac, com eng, lt sci, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 3sci, 2tac
wep-4/3
☐cannons

tier 4 oracle
34000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt eng, com sci, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 3sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 4 luna
32000 hp
11 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens tac com eng, lt sci, ens sci
consoles- 3eng, 2sci, 3tac
wep-4/3
☐cannons

tier 4 akira
33000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- com tac, lt eng, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 2sci, 3tac
wep-4/3
☑cannons

tier 4 avenger
40000 hp
7 turn rate
stations- ens tac, com eng, lt eng, ens eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 2sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 4 nebula
38000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- lt tac, com eng, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 3sci, 2tac
wep-4/3
☐cannons


tier 5 defiant
28000 hp
17 turn rate
stations- com tac, ltc tac, ens tac, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 3eng, 3sci, 4tac
wep- 4/1
☑cannons

tier 5 hermes
29000 hp
14 turn rate
stations- com tac, lt tac, ltc eng, ens eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 2sci, 4tac
wep- 4/3
☑cannons

tier 5 intrepid
33000 hp
13 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt tac, ltc eng, com sci, ens sci
consoles- 3eng, 4sci, 3tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 5 prometheus
34000 hp
15 turn rate
stations- com tac, lt eng, ens eng, ltc sci, lt sci
consoles- 2eng, 4sci, 4tac
wep-4/2
☑cannons

tier 5 ambassador
36000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- lt tac, com eng, ltc eng, ens eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/4
☐cannons

tier 5 stargazer
35000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, com eng, ens eng, lt sci, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/4
☐cannons

tier 5 oracle
37000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt eng, com sci, ltc sci, ens sci
consoles- 4eng, 4sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 5 luna
36000 hp
11 turn rate
stations- lt tac, lt tac com eng, ltc sci, ens sci
consoles- 3eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/3
☐cannons

tier 5 akira
36000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- com tac, ens tac, ltc eng, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 2sci, 4tac
wep-4/3
☑cannons

tier 5 sovereign
38000 hp
12 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, ens tac, com eng, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 2sci, 4tac
wep-4/4
☐cannons

tier 5 avenger
43000 hp
7 turn rate
stations- ens tac, com eng, lt eng, ens eng, ltc sci
consoles- 4eng, 4sci, 2tac
wep-3/3
☐cannons

tier 5 nebula
40000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- lt tac, ens tac, com eng, lt eng, ltc sci
consoles- 4eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/4
☐cannons

tier 5 odyssey
39000 hp
10 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, ens tac, com eng, ltc sci, ens sci
consoles- 4eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/4
☐cannons

tier 5 galaxy
41000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, com eng, lt eng, lt sci, ens sci
consoles- 4eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/4
☐cannons

tier 5 galaxy X
41000 hp
8 turn rate
stations- ltc tac, ens tac, com eng, lt eng, lt sci
consoles- 4eng, 3sci, 3tac
wep-4/4
☑cannons
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
10-17-2011, 03:20 PM
I do think the ships need rejigging. It doesn't sit well with me that a Sovereign class battleship is incapable of acting as a the tactical beast that it is.

That said, I am unsure quite how the system could be rejigged. Though I think yours is a very good starting point.

Finally whoever referenced battlecruisers should avoid using them as an example... In past, present and probably future naval combat the larger the ship the better the stability, the larger the array of weapons and the greater space for technology and future upgrades.

The battlecruiser failed the test of time. British battlecruisers in Jutland suffered exceptionally heavy loses. The HMS Hood lost to the Bismark despite the presence of the Prince of Wales. In the end the battleship became as FAST as the battlecruiser. More heavily armed, more powerfully armoured. The made the battlecruiser obsolete.

The same was found to be the case back in the age of sail. The heavy frigate made older sloops of war, brigs etc pretty obsolete. That was because despite the heavier hull the larger size allowed for a more streamlined design and also of course more sails. Coupled with this it dominated the lighter frigates before it due to being a more sturdy hull and thus despite carrying the same number of guns they were often 24/32pdr's instead of 18pdr's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
10-17-2011, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutoni View Post
I do think the ships need rejigging. It doesn't sit well with me that a Sovereign class battleship is incapable of acting as a the tactical beast that it is.

That said, I am unsure quite how the system could be rejigged. Though I think yours is a very good starting point.

Finally whoever referenced battlecruisers should avoid using them as an example... In past, present and probably future naval combat the larger the ship the better the stability, the larger the array of weapons and the greater space for technology and future upgrades.

The battlecruiser failed the test of time. British battlecruisers in Jutland suffered exceptionally heavy loses. The HMS Hood lost to the Bismark despite the presence of the Prince of Wales. In the end the battleship became as FAST as the battlecruiser. More heavily armed, more powerfully armoured. The made the battlecruiser obsolete.

The same was found to be the case back in the age of sail. The heavy frigate made older sloops of war, brigs etc pretty obsolete. That was because despite the heavier hull the larger size allowed for a more streamlined design and also of course more sails. Coupled with this it dominated the lighter frigates before it due to being a more sturdy hull and thus despite carrying the same number of guns they were often 24/32pdr's instead of 18pdr's.
nice history lesson on battle cruiser there, the same rules that applied in those days really seem to apply to star trek ships too. funny how you mention the sovereign being a tactical beast, she actually falls into that battle cruser category, compared to the largest of starfleet battleships, or capital ships like i called them.

when ever i use the word battleship to describe the galaxy class, some know it all or troll is Quick to point out that starfleet doesn't have any battleships! not seeming to know that that is simply the word that classifies the largest ships with the biggest guns, which is an accurate description actually.

i think the size classification is impotent, its silly to think a smaller ship could out fight a larger ship. that being said, the galaxy class is about 2.5 times the sovereign's volume, its overall size and the size of its phaser arrays and 2 enormous torpedo launchers makes me a firm believer that the battleship galaxy is quit a bit more powerful and dangerous then the battle cruiser sovereign, especially if their tech upgrade level was even.

but as far as gameplay goes, that's secondary, we cant have the largest ships be unbeatable. my system does try to take size into account, and having advantages and disadvantages associated with them. that just so happen to work well in a game that requires a massive amount of balancing for competitive play.
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