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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Well there have been a lot of tournaments over the long months and year of this game's life, but with limited exceptions they have all been based along the same lines. For that reason I've been thinking of ways to spice it up and before I really try to organize anything I'd like to see what yall think of this idea for organizing the teams of the tournaments.

My line of thinking for the system is for either 3v3 or 5v5 (or both ):
Point value based teams: Each ship type has a point value (based on generalities, adv. and fleet escorts fall under same category and so on) and each team has a maximum number of points available to spend. So an example setup of a 3v3 league would be:
Max Points: 13
-Cruisers worth: 7
-Carriers worth: 7
-Sci Ships worth: 5
-Escorts worth: 3
-BoPs + MVAE: 4

Of course point values can be adjusted but yall get the gist of it, and teams would have submit their setups for qualification to the ref(s) prior to the match starting.

Obviously other rules would apply so long as certain powers are as they are, but I'm just trying to find out if there would be much interest were a tournament to be organized along those lines?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
10-09-2011, 02:04 PM
The idea of a point system was actually being considered by zorena and kai for the second tsi funday before qew took over and turned it into pug events.

You can ask them for a link to the spreadsheet they made and see with which point values for the various ships they came up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
10-09-2011, 02:06 PM
I'm not entirely sure cruisers can still be considered more powerful than science ships. Also, a point system is never going to work, balance is more complicated than that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
10-09-2011, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
The idea of a point system was actually being considered by zorena and kai for the second tsi funday before qew took over and turned it into pug events.

You can ask them for a link to the spreadsheet they made and see with which point values for the various ships they came up.
Didn't know about that, lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
I'm not entirely sure cruisers can still be considered more powerful than science ships. Also, a point system is never going to work, balance is more complicated than that.
I'm not trying to suggest that balance is so clear cut (because it isn't, especially in this game), I'm just introducing limiting factors based on a few principles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
10-09-2011, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Well there have been a lot of tournaments over the long months and year of this game's life, but with limited exceptions they have all been based along the same lines. For that reason I've been thinking of ways to spice it up and before I really try to organize anything I'd like to see what yall think of this idea for organizing the teams of the tournaments.

My line of thinking for the system is for either 3v3 or 5v5 (or both ):
Point value based teams: Each ship type has a point value (based on generalities, adv. and fleet escorts fall under same category and so on) and each team has a maximum number of points available to spend. So an example setup of a 3v3 league would be:
Max Points: 13
-Cruisers worth: 7
-Carriers worth: 7
-Sci Ships worth: 5
-Escorts worth: 3
-BoPs + MVAE: 4

Of course point values can be adjusted but yall get the gist of it, and teams would have submit their setups for qualification to the ref(s) prior to the match starting.

Obviously other rules would apply so long as certain powers are as they are, but I'm just trying to find out if there would be much interest were a tournament to be organized along those lines?
I really like this idea Good stuff but i do agree with hurleybird, cruisers shouldn't be worth as much as Carriers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorena
No FAW? Awww
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
10-09-2011, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirPretorius
I really like this idea Good stuff but i do agree with hurleybird, cruisers shouldn't be worth as much as Carriers



No FAW? Awww
the issue i always ran into when i thought of this, there is no "fair" way to assign points to feds verses klingons.

in klingon vrs klingon its easy, in fed vrs fed its easy. but the ship selections are so vastly different between feds and klingons that (unless you try to force klingons to play like fed which i found was apparently a bad idea) theres no way to assign a balanced point system to the ships.

this may on the other hand be able to be done with fighters/shuttles. the ones the klingons have are basically identical to the fed side ones so its all basically a skin thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
10-09-2011, 04:30 PM
i support this idea and wish to implement sivar's idea.

the disparity between ships is hard to do on a class schedule, do it on a ship by ship schdule.

so starting on a scale from 1-10, 15 being the intrepid. what are your ideas? don't restrict anything available.

intrepid - 15.5
bop/mvae - 9
carrier - 8
fedsci - 7
klingcruis - 7
excelsior - 7
fedcruis - 6 (unless he's a tac nubsauce)
raptor/defiant - 5
d'kyr - 5
garumba - 5
galX - lol


and shift total point make-up depending on current crap being available to abuse. anyway...lets just rank the ships..ongoing.... depending on powers. and form rules that are made to be ammeneded with climate change. even go to a .5 system if needed. (not a tree hugger) (actually climate change is bs, as in we have no impact on an environment as big as the earth...we are so insignaifigant. can someone tell me the perfect temperature for earth? if not shut up. in the 80's it was cooling, 70's warming...ect ect....the fact that we've only been monitoring the actual core temp of the earth for like 20 years and the atmosphere for just under 100, i just dont see.......wow..sorry.)

have fun kill bad guys.

-horizon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
10-09-2011, 11:17 PM
I had the idea to not assign one-score-fits-all, but instead give every ship 3 or 4 scores, and an "fair" team has a maximum point value for each score. See here: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=231001

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
So, we had a lot of discussions about how to balance teams in tournaments. This is just a random idea I had that might help if you want a little more complex but yet quickly to adjudicate system that gives a lot of flexibility to limit team compositions. It also helps giving "hybrid" ships an appropriate value.

The base system is:
Every ship is assigned an "Escort", a "Cruiser", a "Science" and a "Carrier" score. Tournament rules might include:
  • The scores for each ship
  • The total score a team may not exceed.
The indivual ship scores do not have to add up to the same number, because we want to represent that some ships are better for a certain role than others. So we can recognize existing imbalances in gameplay.
The individual team score for each type does also not have the same total value - we again base this on balance and "game frustration" elements.
The goal is not to max out the points, it's just to not exceed them (though I am sure some people will see it as a mathematical optimization problem.)

An example setup:

All Escorts except MVAM: 4 Escort , 0 Cruiser, 0 Science
MVAM: 4 Escort, 1 Science, 1 Carrier (in a mixed faction tournament, we might worry about the spam factor of MVAMs with Carriers)
All Science Vessels except Intrepid, Nebula and D'Kyr: 4 Science, 0 Escort, 0 Cruiser
Intrepid: 5 Science
Nebula: 4 Science, 2 Cruiser
D'Kyr: 4 Science, 1 Cruiser

Alll Cruisers and Battlecruisers except Star Cruiser and Excelsior: 4 Cruiser
Star Cruiser: 5 Cruiser
Excelsior: 5 Cruiser (In this tournament we just see the Excelsior as a "better" cruiser than others. One could argue that we could also give it an Escort point, but our goal is to minimize the presence of strong cruisers, not the number of Escorts)

Bird of Prey: 3 Escort, 3 Science (This recognizes the fact that the BOP is a strong platform for both sides, but doesn't quite excel at each individual role as the Escort, but gives a way to have it interact with other science ships)

Vo'Quv Carrier: 3 Science, 1 Cruiser, 3 Carrier
Kar'Fi Carrier: 3 Science, 2 Carrier
A tournament team rule might be:
Team Escort Strength: 12 (maximum of 3 Escorts)
Team Cruiser Strength: 9 (maximum 2 Cruisers)
Team Science Strength: 9 (maximum 2 Science Vessels, no more than one Intrepid)
Team Carrier Strength: 7 (maximum 2 Vo'Quvs or 3 Kar'Fis, or 2 Kar'fis and 1 Vo'Quv)

Say, you want 1 Escort and 2 Science Vessels on your team. Of course you pick the "best" Escort, the MVAM AE, but then you suddenly only have 8 Science points left, so you can either not use the LRSV-R, or you use two non LRSV-R Science vessels. Or you ditch the MVAM for a different Escort so you can get at least one LRSV-R.


This can even suport cross-faction teaming. The numbers for the individual ships and the team rules can be adjusted for each tournament.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
10-09-2011, 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirPretorius
I really like this idea Good stuff but i do agree with hurleybird, cruisers shouldn't be worth as much as Carriers

No FAW? Awww
Well again they're just test figures, but also consider the context that it was a 3v3 tournament example so there would be certain considerations from a 5v5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
the issue i always ran into when i thought of this, there is no "fair" way to assign points to feds verses klingons.

in klingon vrs klingon its easy, in fed vrs fed its easy. but the ship selections are so vastly different between feds and klingons that (unless you try to force klingons to play like fed which i found was apparently a bad idea) theres no way to assign a balanced point system to the ships.

this may on the other hand be able to be done with fighters/shuttles. the ones the klingons have are basically identical to the fed side ones so its all basically a skin thing.
Well that's kinda the thing though, you're trying to bring up a balance when the game itself isn't balanced and is in fact quite unbalanced. Sure we can poke and prod at a couple powers here and a few powers there that are particularly screwy, but when you break it down there are somethings that you just can't handle; and as the saying goes, the more you overwork the pluming, the easier it is to stop up the drain...

So what's the answer? It might sound crazy, but instead of reaching a general balance, aim the system towards one or a small set of goals, such as limiting healing, or limiting spam, and so on. I know that in most cases, more specifics lead to better balance, but just remember that this game's balance is a partly collapsed house of cards.....
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