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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
10-15-2011, 01:03 PM
no, i believe people who are raging for ra+ only are completely stubborn and not realizing that the low lvl players could be alts from another players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
10-16-2011, 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by turrick
no, i believe people who are raging for ra+ only are completely stubborn and not realizing that the low lvl players could be alts from another players.
We're not raging. We've identified certain issues with RA missions, substantiated our claims, and suggested solutions for those issues.

I am also quite aware some low level players are actually VAs on Alt toons. Shame on them, more than noobs, for failed RA missions (those failed because a team has too many low level players). Why, because they're VAs and should know what their limitations are at the lower ranks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
10-16-2011, 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
We're not raging. We've identified certain issues with RA missions, substantiated our claims, and suggested solutions for those issues.
They were substantiated? Just stating low level players are a problem isn't substantiating them, it's stating your claim. Right now I'm even less convinced it's low level players that cause the problems; I've just finished an instance with 2 VA cruisers, a T4 cruiser an Akira and a Sabre. It went down to the wire (less than 20 seconds on the clock) but it was a victory, and it was even the annoying command ship that spams all the regeneration probes. Because the group worked together and focused on one shield facing and clearing regen probes when they appeared a very low damage group was victorious. Teamwork helps here, regardless of the make up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
I am also quite aware some low level players are actually VAs on Alt toons. Shame on them, more than noobs, for failed RA missions (those failed because a team has too many low level players). Why, because they're VAs and should know what their limitations are at the lower ranks.
Shame on them? Last I checked these were pretty much intended for lower level players, hence the XP boosts and 5x kill bonus. The only problem lower level players cause is forcing VAs to step up their game rather than be carried by the other VAs in the instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
Why, because they're VAs and should know what their limitations are at the lower ranks
As one of those VAs that's currently levelling 3 characters and occasionally popping into the Borg DSEs as they present themselves I should probably explain something. As a Commander in one of these DSEs I usually don't attract a lot of attention from the Borg, despite dealing a decent amount of damage (BO2 and 3, Spread 1x2 in an Akira) so as I'm firing I watch the VAs. You wouldn't believe the things they get up to, Cruisers parked stationary nose on firing, wasting the potential of their aft beams. Escorts and Cruisers with no HE to clear the shield neutralisers, no PH or AP:Omega to break tractors, no EPtS for bringing back their shields and worse. If these are restricted to RA/VA then I hope they're made even more difficult so that all those that blame low level characters for failures can then look at the real culprit, badly handled RA/VA and their badly equipped ships.
But at the end of all that, I don't really mind a win or a fail as long as the group worked together to focus fire and clear regen probes, sometimes you just aren't going to win and that's why I like these. I can get a guaranteed victory in any other PvE part of the game so I'd rather the uncertainty stayed with these, even if it is only brought about by those that either can't or won't learn as to what their limitations are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
10-16-2011, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
But at the end of all that, I don't really mind a win or a fail as long as the group worked together to focus fire and clear regen probes, sometimes you just aren't going to win and that's why I like these.
This about sums up all that needs to be said.

You're going to win some, and you're going to lose some, regardless of whether you have low levels on your team or not. In some cases the odds are going to be more stacked against you than in others (all low levels, all high level probe farmers, etc. and whatever).

I've lost plenty of RAs but still managed to get all the accolades (and did so without screwing over others by probe farm)

So just take the losses with a grain of salt, use every battle as a learning experience and take solace in the fact that even if you lose, you're helping lower levels gain exp, kills toward their accolades and knowledge.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
10-18-2011, 02:17 PM
either way we need to smarten up and fight and use tactics against the Borg cause we are loosing way to many ships to the Borg.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
10-19-2011, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
They were substantiated? Just stating low level players are a problem isn't substantiating them, it's stating your claim. Right now I'm even less convinced it's low level players that cause the problems.
I've substantiated the need for lower level players restrictions in previous comments, not in the thread you quoted. For the sake of our debate however, let me repeat them & expand on them.

Issue: Lower tier ships handicap a team.

I think you can enter Borg Incursions at Lt Comm 6.

A Tier 2 ship Saber has:
3 forward & 1 aft weapons
1 Eng, 2 Tac, & 1 Sci consoles
4 BO Stations

A tier 5 Defiant has
4 forward & 3 aft weapons,
2 Eng, 4 Tac, & 2 Sci consoles
12 BO Stations

Now Cryptic helps lower level players in Borg incursions by bumping them up to level 45 stats. A Lt Comm on a team instead of a VA however shorted that team 3 weapons, 4 consoles, & 8 stations.

Issue: To many lower level player on a team create to many failed missions.
Using the math above, the more lower level ships a team has, the more DPS & BO skills it loses. At some point you can't successfully complete a mission.

Issue: Lower level players don't have enough experience and handicap a team.
I'll have to compromise on this issue and agree with you that there are just as many VAs contributing to the problem. A VA rank doesn't necessarily mean someone is a "good" player. Given a choice though, I prefer having a VA with poor playing skills over a low level player. The added DPS & skills are more advantageous to completing a Borg incursions IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
I've just finished an instance with 2 VA cruisers, a T4 cruiser an Akira and a Sabre. It went down to the wire (less than 20 seconds on the clock) but it was a victory, and it was even the annoying command ship that spams all the regeneration probes. Because the group worked together and focused on one shield facing and clearing regen probes when they appeared a very low damage group was victorious. Teamwork helps here, regardless of the make up.
This senerio supports my viewpoint more than yours. You won an incursion with 2 VAs, 1 Capt, 1 Comm, & 1 Lt Comm. Lower the rank of one of those players & you probably lose the battle. Lower the rank of 2, 3, or 4 players & you definitely lose. Therefore rank does matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
Last I checked these were pretty much intended for lower level players, hence the XP boosts and 5x kill bonus. The only problem lower level players cause is forcing VAs to step up their game rather than be carried by the other VAs in the instance.
This statement is inaccurate. Cryptic has stated Borg Incursions are DSEs. The skill boosts for lower level players, & the accolades & emblems for VAs are insentives to play the incursions. Nowhere has Cryptic written the incursions are power leveling missions. I would suggest however that one reason the incursion are available to most ranks is an attempt to increase membership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
But at the end of all that, I don't really mind a win or a fail as long as the group worked together to focus fire and clear regen probes, sometimes you just aren't going to win and that's why I like these. I can get a guaranteed victory in any other PvE part of the game so I'd rather the uncertainty stayed with these, even if it is only brought about by those that either can't or won't learn as to what their limitations are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Chronos
This about sums up all that needs to be said.

You're going to win some, and you're going to lose some, regardless of whether you have low levels on your team or not. In some cases the odds are going to be more stacked against you than in others (all low levels, all high level probe farmers, etc. and whatever).

I've lost plenty of RAs but still managed to get all the accolades (and did so without screwing over others by probe farm)

So just take the losses with a grain of salt, use every battle as a learning experience and take solace in the fact that even if you lose, you're helping lower levels gain exp, kills toward their accolades and knowledge.
I don't want an "I WIN" button either. Like you, I've won my share of incursions with no time left on the clock as well. Those victories I enjoyed more than any other. I've also lost my share of incursions too. But if I'm going to lose, I want it to be on a "fair" playing field. And that's the issue we're debating. Borg incursions contain a broken game mechanic that can unfairly keep players from completing the mission successfully. It's bad enough that selfish players create losses already.

In closing, if I see you all in a Borg incusion some day, I'll be happy to fly into battle with you anytime.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
10-19-2011, 08:11 PM
I've been in Borg red alerts where everyone arrives in the area, and it's like no one there know's what they want to attack first. Everyone is just sitting there, STILL, NOT MOVING.

MOVE, and ATTACK something!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
10-20-2011, 05:41 AM
I've been in many an RA with almost wholly Captain and lower teams and passed with flying colors. If you can't beat one with a few in there, then it's cause the team isn't playing well.

I was in a LtCmdr Connie, with an NX and Oberth in the group, along with a Captain and then a single Admiral earlier, and we did it no problem... cause we worked together. It's when teams fail to take out regen probes or work to keep each other alive or focus on the same part of the B'Ger does a fail happen.

So yeah... if you absolutely have to have Admirals to facesmash your way through the fight... it's on you and your teammates. If I can be a **** and show up in my runabout with only two other admirals in the fight and the other two as Commanders and still clear it easy, then no one should have any major problem with lower ranked people in RAs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
10-20-2011, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
I've substantiated the need for lower level players restrictions in previous comments, not in the thread you quoted. For the sake of our debate however, let me repeat them & expand on them.

Issue: Lower tier ships handicap a team.

I think you can enter Borg Incursions at Lt Comm 6.

A Tier 2 ship Saber has:
3 forward & 1 aft weapons
1 Eng, 2 Tac, & 1 Sci consoles
4 BO Stations

A tier 5 Defiant has
4 forward & 3 aft weapons,
2 Eng, 4 Tac, & 2 Sci consoles
12 BO Stations
This assumes that the DPS from 5 T5 ships is required when it clearly isn't. I've been in instances where I've been the only VA and had 4 LT/LTC in with me and still defeated the command ship yet been in some where the group was made of 5 VAs and they didn't even come close to defeating the command ship. The difference is team work, not BO slots and weapon hardpoints.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
This senerio supports my viewpoint more than yours. You won an incursion with 2 VAs, 1 Capt, 1 Comm, & 1 Lt Comm. Lower the rank of one of those players & you probably lose the battle. Lower the rank of 2, 3, or 4 players & you definitely lose. Therefore rank does matter.
Not necessarily. These DSEs are DPS races and that group was a very low damage group (the Cruisers were all heal boats but weren't healing the either me or the Sabre). What a lot of these Cruiser captains don't seem to realise is that a T2/T3 Escort with CRF (with the boosted damage and captain skills) is still going to be dealing at least as much damage if not more than a Cruiser, the Akira will easily out damage a T5 cruiser anyway unless it's running with DEM, 125 weapons and EWP but not many do.
For me as an Escort user, I dread a group full of cruisers because I know I likely won't receive a heal but they'll still be contributing very little damage, in those cases i'd be happy to take an Akira in the place of a T5 cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
This statement is inaccurate. Cryptic has stated Borg Incursions are DSEs. The skill boosts for lower level players, & the accolades & emblems for VAs are insentives to play the incursions. Nowhere has Cryptic written the incursions are power leveling missions. I would suggest however that one reason the incursion are available to most ranks is an attempt to increase membership.
I have 6 characters. 4 VAs, 1 Captain and an Ensign. The only Borg DSEs I run these days are on my low level characters because the incentive is useful for them, for my VAs it's useless, I already have over 1 million BO skill points across the VAs so really don't need more. The Accolades are nice to have but offer little other than a title but even for an accolade hunter you only need one victory in each sector so blocking lower level characters because VAs don't want to lose isn't an idea I could support, not when I don't even feel that they're a problem that needs to be solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
I don't want an "I WIN" button either. Like you, I've won my share of incursions with no time left on the clock as well. Those victories I enjoyed more than any other. I've also lost my share of incursions too. But if I'm going to lose, I want it to be on a "fair" playing field. And that's the issue we're debating. Borg incursions contain a broken game mechanic that can unfairly keep players from completing the mission successfully. It's bad enough that selfish players create losses already.
For me the only broken game mechanic in these DSEs is the Spread the Borg use. One shots are never fun and repeated one shots are even less fun but that's me.
I don't feel it's an unfair playing field and would actually like the mixed ranks to be added to Fleet Actions as well. Although the Borg DSEs are a little more difficult than the FAs the addition of lower level players makes them more interesting but the best part for me is that with a weak group I know my Escort has to work harder and i like a challenge. I may still lose but I'd rather lose after trying than win with 9 minutes to spare, especially if I helped a lower level player gain a level or two in the process.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
10-20-2011, 05:55 AM
just so you know, a few days ago i was a LT with the toon 'Sellus', and she passed 2 Red Alerts in a row, but the subsequent Red alerts after mostly failed because one player led the others of the cliff by attacking too big a target like the Tac cubes and wasted half the 15 minutes or those that have the heavy DPS focus on the probes and not the v'ger probe itself, meaning it'shields regened quickly and every time the probes were taken out and the plasma torpedoesshot down, there was only a few seconds of attacking before again, the DPS players focused again on the probes and not the v'ger probe. it's always the same thing which is why it failed so often.
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